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Upton Warren (12 Viewers)

Very informative John, thank you. Salt/Flashes, I had no idea. Why would anyone oppose the work that is being carried out then? what skin is it off anyones nose or is it the trust who have an objection?

Far from it, the trust are on board with all we are doing and Andy Harris(trust reserve officer) is cutting trees and treating those that are in the wrong place.
They are the professionals and we are singing from the same hymn sheet. I think its the myth that trees are the panacea of life and its sacrilege to touch them, that gets to a lot of uninformed people.
I do also think that there a couple of disconsolate ex work party members that threw their toys out of the pram (who have got their own agenda), that are just bad mouthing everything we do. It is also a personal vendetta against me, but I don't scare easily so they had better up their game.
Unfortunately they are influencing some new members, before we have the chance to have our input. But you cant please all the people all the time. We are a little bit sensitive to unfounded criticism so you will have to bear with us at times we do our best and wont be deterred from doing so.
B :) John
 
thought i'd put a few pics on from last few days visits, thought the hide was a lot better than i'd expected it to be, nice to be back on the flashes again, enjoyed reading the thread lately who's on here hayes and chisora! don't ya just love it.

How's the hand coming along Trace?
 
Can I sweeten the mood a little by saying that my first impressions of the new hide were very favourable? I managed a brief visit in my lunchbreak and although I didn't see many birds I thought the visibility at both the front and the sides was much improved. It also felt very solid and the wood surfaces were smooth and reassuring. I am looking forward to much longer sessions there.

Although there were few birds to be seen I thought that there was much more birdsong around the Hen Pool hide than of late, not just Robins. Has anyone else noticed this or is it my wishful thinking?
Peter

Hopefully that is the benefit of our scrub management works, which commenced last year, being reaped. Every effect has a cause ;)
 
The New Hide

I have to say that in my view the New Hide is not as bad by any means as one might think from listening to the reports on this forum! I have been in it today and can honestly say its absolutely fine - in fact it seems great! It is strong, safe, sturdy, spacious, easy to access, comfortable, warm, draught proof etc etc! Yes there will be issues for certain people but on the whole I think the WWT have done a good job in getting it built, although its construction took a long time to complete I must admit!

Having stayed away from UW for some weeks due to this and the fact that there didn't appear to be much about I was shocked at the desolation that has taken place since my last visit! Scrub Management - I don't understand it if I was honest but surely it has now gone too far? Why not drop a nuclear bomb on the place - it would hardly be more effective! OK perhaps I am uneducated in these matters but why not curtail the work parties now for the breeding season at least and let the place go back to a natural state? It seems to me that the working parties are destroying the place? You may mean well but have you looked at it recently? Someone must be stocking up on logs for the winter from what I and others can see? I just can't see the justification in what has been and is being done as we speak! Can someone please explain why in simple terms for me and others who are confused? I have spoken to a number of members today and expressed my concerns - most of them agree with me! What do other members think?
 
I have to say that in my view the New Hide is not as bad by any means as one might think from listening to the reports on this forum! I have been in it today and can honestly say its absolutely fine - in fact it seems great! It is strong, safe, sturdy, spacious, easy to access, comfortable, warm, draught proof etc etc! Yes there will be issues for certain people but on the whole I think the WWT have done a good job in getting it built, although its construction took a long time to complete I must admit!

Having stayed away from UW for some weeks due to this and the fact that there didn't appear to be much about I was shocked at the desolation that has taken place since my last visit! Scrub Management - I don't understand it if I was honest but surely it has now gone too far? Why not drop a nuclear bomb on the place - it would hardly be more effective! OK perhaps I am uneducated in these matters but why not curtail the work parties now for the breeding season at least and let the place go back to a natural state? It seems to me that the working parties are destroying the place? You may mean well but have you looked at it recently? Someone must be stocking up on logs for the winter from what I and others can see? I just can't see the justification in what has been and is being done as we speak! Can someone please explain why in simple terms for me and others who are confused? I have spoken to a number of members today and expressed my concerns - most of them agree with me! What do other members think?

Could'nt disagree more with this, personally.
 
I have to say that in my view the New Hide is not as bad by any means as one might think from listening to the reports on this forum! I have been in it today and can honestly say its absolutely fine - in fact it seems great! It is strong, safe, sturdy, spacious, easy to access, comfortable, warm, draught proof etc etc! Yes there will be issues for certain people but on the whole I think the WWT have done a good job in getting it built, although its construction took a long time to complete I must admit!

Having stayed away from UW for some weeks due to this and the fact that there didn't appear to be much about I was shocked at the desolation that has taken place since my last visit! Scrub Management - I don't understand it if I was honest but surely it has now gone too far? Why not drop a nuclear bomb on the place - it would hardly be more effective! OK perhaps I am uneducated in these matters but why not curtail the work parties now for the breeding season at least and let the place go back to a natural state? It seems to me that the working parties are destroying the place? You may mean well but have you looked at it recently? Someone must be stocking up on logs for the winter from what I and others can see? I just can't see the justification in what has been and is being done as we speak! Can someone please explain why in simple terms for me and others who are confused? I have spoken to a number of members today and expressed my concerns - most of them agree with me! What do other members think?

Far from it - the work parties are rejuvinating Upton Warren. They will stop (as they always have done) in time for the breeding season but in the meantime they play a vital role in providing a diverse habitat targeting certain species under pressure. The breeding surveys undertaken last year speak for themselves, I am sure John can break out the stats if you want. Suffice to say that Willow Warbler, a bird lost to the reserve as a breeding species since the earlier 2000s, made a strong comeback and other warbler (incl Blackcap, Lesser Whitethroat, Common Whitethroat etc) all performed well.

As John has alluded to earlier, if we did nothing the reeds would march in, followed by the willows and the whole thing woud soon be a wood, of which there are plenty in Worcestershire. The work is focused on supporting what makes Upton unique. Whilst the scrub management (and its called management for a reason) may appear brutal at first glance, it is the only way to achieve change. I will be the first to admit that we have spent several years not engaging in work in several areas of the reserve through efforts being diverted elsewhere but we now have to play catch-up and we cant tinker around the edges.

Much of the work undertaken at the Moors Pool, where I imagine you are focusing for criticism, is taking it back to where is was 20 odd years ago (John was kind enough to post a series of images a few weeks back). It was never envisaged to have a huge screening woodland opposite Lifestyles and the recent works have taken it back to what was desired in the first place. Unfortunately much of the growth at Upton gets very leggy very quickly, resulting in shading out, little ground vegetation and very tall growth of little use to birds for either nesting or feeding. The thinning out of the trees and creation of dead hedges will not only promote lateral growth but also new bramble patches which will benefit small mammals, butterflies etc as well as breeding birds. Judge it not by what the area looks like now but what it is producing in say 15 months time. The fact that we have worked hand in hand with the Trust on this project demonstrates that they endorse the scrub management work. We have even put signs up around the reserve explaining why this work has been undertaken.

The work undertaken on the reserve by volunteers is founded on detailed research on what methods have been used on other reserves, books and ecology / conversation studies by the RSPB, Natural England and other such bodies, and by detailed observations over many years, both of the birds and how they use the reserve but also of nature's reaction to works we have done in the past.

Like John I am immensely proud of the work parties and what they have achieved over the years and I almost there was a paralell universe so I could demonstrate what the area would be like otherwise. the volunteer pool has now grown to 60 odd (well some of them are!) individuals, but individuals who make up a team. I know if I picked up the phone to call an emergency work party or some overnight wardening or policing a rarity most would respond at the drop of a hat.

Enough breast-beating, I feel like reinstating UPTON-TILL-I-DIE. GRRRRRR!

PS Is that a suggestion thrown in that the works are being driven from a personal gain from cut wood?! Over the years the organisers of the work party have invested many many hours and ££££ of their own money in keeping the work parties in refreshments, petrol, cable ties etc etc. We do it cos we love the place and are trying to do the right thing for it. Simples
 
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Far from it - the work parties are rejuvinating Upton Warren. They will stop (as they always have done) in time for the breeding season but in the meantime they play a vital role in providing a diverse habitat targeting certain species under pressure. The breeding surveys undertaken last year speak for themselves, I am sure John can break out the stats if you want. Suffice to say that Willow Warbler, a bird lost to the reserve as a breeding species since the earlier 2000s, made a strong comeback and other warbler (incl Blackcap, Lesser Whitethroat, Common Whitethroat etc) all performed well.

As John has alluded to earlier, if we did nothing the reeds would march in, followed by the willows and the whole thing woud soon be a wood, of which there are plenty in Worcestershire. The work is focused on supporting what makes Upton unique. Whilst the scrub management (and its called management for a reason) may appear brutal at first glance, it is the only way to achieve change. I will be the first to admit that we have spent several years not engaging in work in several areas of the reserve through efforts being diverted elsewhere but we now have to play catch-up and we cant tinker around the edges.

Much of the work undertaken at the Moors Pool, where I imagine you are focusing for criticism, is taking it back to where is was 20 odd years ago (John was kind enough to post a series of images a few weeks back). It was never envisaged to have a huge screening woodland opposite Lifestyles and the recent works have taken it back to what was desired in the first place. Unfortunately much of the growth at Upton gets very leggy very quickly, resulting in shading out, little ground vegetation and very tall growth of little use to birds for either nesting or feeding. The thinning out of the trees and creation of dead hedges will not only promote lateral growth but also new bramble patches which will benefit small mammals, butterflies etc as well as breeding birds. Judge it not by what the area looks like now but what it is producing in say 15 months time. The fact that we have worked hand in hand with the Trust on this project demonstrates that they endorse the scrub management work. We have even put signs up around the reserve explaining why this work has been undertaken.

The work undertaken on the reserve by volunteers is founded on detailed research on what methods have been used on other reserves, books and ecology / conversation studies by the RSPB, Natural England and other such bodies, and by detailed observations over many years, both of the birds and how they use the reserve but also of nature's reaction to works we have done in the past.

Like John I am immensely proud of the work parties and what they have achieved over the years and I almost there was a paralell universe so I could demonstrate what the area would be like otherwise. the volunteer pool has now grown to 60 odd (well some of them are!) individuals, but individuals who make up a team. I know if I picked up the phone to call an emergency work party or some overnight wardening or policing a rarity most would respond at the drop of a hat.

Enough breast-beating, I feel like reinstating UPTON-TILL-I-DIE. GRRRRRR!

Nicely summarised Phil. I, too, am proud of the way the management over the past 20 years has arested the widespread development of climax woodland and, thereby, resulted in a much more diverse wetland reserve. The breeding and visiting birds are testament to that.
 
I have to say that in my view the New Hide is not as bad by any means as one might think from listening to the reports on this forum! I have been in it today and can honestly say its absolutely fine - in fact it seems great! It is strong, safe, sturdy, spacious, easy to access, comfortable, warm, draught proof etc etc! Yes there will be issues for certain people but on the whole I think the WWT have done a good job in getting it built, although its construction took a long time to complete I must admit!

Having stayed away from UW for some weeks due to this and the fact that there didn't appear to be much about I was shocked at the desolation that has taken place since my last visit! Scrub Management - I don't understand it if I was honest but surely it has now gone too far? Why not drop a nuclear bomb on the place - it would hardly be more effective! OK perhaps I am uneducated in these matters but why not curtail the work parties now for the breeding season at least and let the place go back to a natural state? It seems to me that the working parties are destroying the place? You may mean well but have you looked at it recently? Someone must be stocking up on logs for the winter from what I and others can see? I just can't see the justification in what has been and is being done as we speak! Can someone please explain why in simple terms for me and others who are confused? I have spoken to a number of members today and expressed my concerns - most of them agree with me! What do other members think?

If you felt so strong about it , you saw me working with Andy from the Trust why didn't you come and have a discussion about it with us. Instead of bad mouthing me in the hide. Maybe you are talking to the wrong people and being influenced by them and I know who you have been talking to.
 
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If you felt so strong about it , you saw me working with Andy from the Trust why didn't you come and have a discussion about it with us. Instead of bad mouthing me in the hide. Maybe you are talking to the wrong people and being influenced by them and I know who you have been talking to.

I haven't 'bad mouthed' any individual in the hide! I can't even remember your name but I remember you as being a decent guy! That's not the point. I didn't approach you at the time because I didn't understand what you were doing and I hadn't at that point walked from the Moors to the Flashes either to see the changes! Because I am putting forward a point of view, which maybe you and others don't like, you appear to be taking it personal! To me that seems to be the problem with this forum - you don't like to hear other members opinions if they don't fit or other members are afraid to speak out! No doubt your intentions are good but why don't you try getting others on your side instead of dismissing everyone else, including sometimes the WWT, as idiots? Maybe that's why the vast majority of members look at the forum to get information but don't interact with it or are afraid to? Food for thought? I am not afraid to speak out and tell it as it is as you can see but it isn't personal! Maybe I too should follow the others and look but not interact? Not my style though!
 
I haven't 'bad mouthed' any individual in the hide! I can't even remember your name but I remember you as being a decent guy! That's not the point. I didn't approach you at the time because I didn't understand what you were doing and I hadn't at that point walked from the Moors to the Flashes either to see the changes! Because I am putting forward a point of view, which maybe you and others don't like, you appear to be taking it personal! To me that seems to be the problem with this forum - you don't like to hear other members opinions if they don't fit or other members are afraid to speak out! No doubt your intentions are good but why don't you try getting others on your side instead of dismissing everyone else, including sometimes the WWT, as idiots? Maybe that's why the vast majority of members look at the forum to get information but don't interact with it or are afraid to? Food for thought? I am not afraid to speak out and tell it as it is as you can see but it isn't personal! Maybe I too should follow the others and look but not interact? Not my style though!

As I've said before, I disagree with most of what you say but you do have some valid points there and I do take on board the fact that some members do disagree with the course of management actions that are carried out. I think we would all be better off if we had some rational (rather than emotional) dialogue so that we could all be represented in our wishes for the future of this gem of a reserve.
 
binus1963

Wonderful photos, my fav was the Green Woodpecker.

Thank you

Graham Martin
I second that comment, the Green Woody is fantastic!
I hope my attempt to be funny is not the cause for this page's argument. I find this site very nice, funny and informative at the same time. I actually like to look for sightings and stumble across other posts from which I can learn something (mainly statistical formulas |:D|) or have a little laugh about - or both!
 
You only have to go to Wilden to see how quickly and drastically a habitat can change - The halcyon days of passage waders and wintering Water Pipits are a distant memory. These places have to be 'managed' some areas with them 'micro-managed' if variety of habits are desired. Worcestershire has enough areas of Sallow scrub and alas Wilden is now just another one of those. The Trust should have carried on some sort of management agreement with British Sugar to maintain the bunds and retain the water. Maybe they tried, i do'nt know - I bumped into somebody with his 'volunteer' hat on last year who told me i was'nt allowed to walk around. I thought, where were you 30 years ago mate? Needless to say i carried on birding.............;)

Somebody find something good at UW soon please.

Laurie:t:
 
You only have to go to Wilden to see how quickly and drastically a habitat can change - The halcyon days of passage waders and wintering Water Pipits are a distant memory. These places have to be 'managed' some areas with them 'micro-managed' if variety of habits are desired. Worcestershire has enough areas of Sallow scrub and alas Wilden is now just another one of those. The Trust should have carried on some sort of management agreement with British Sugar to maintain the bunds and retain the water. Maybe they tried, i do'nt know - I bumped into somebody with his 'volunteer' hat on last year who told me i was'nt allowed to walk around. I thought, where were you 30 years ago mate? Needless to say i carried on birding.............;)

Somebody find something good at UW soon please.

Laurie:t:

Thanks Laurie - I was dredging my mind for a local example of a lack of intervention and its result.

Now, as ordered, out into the field to find something decent. Sightings will be posted on here later :t:
 
You only have to go to Wilden to see how quickly and drastically a habitat can change - The halcyon days of passage waders and wintering Water Pipits are a distant memory. These places have to be 'managed' some areas with them 'micro-managed' if variety of habits are desired. Worcestershire has enough areas of Sallow scrub and alas Wilden is now just another one of those. The Trust should have carried on some sort of management agreement with British Sugar to maintain the bunds and retain the water. Maybe they tried, i do'nt know - I bumped into somebody with his 'volunteer' hat on last year who told me i was'nt allowed to walk around. I thought, where were you 30 years ago mate? Needless to say i carried on birding.............;)

Somebody find something good at UW soon please.

Laurie:t:

Having made many visits to Wilden over the years I too lament its passing as a prime birding spot due to lack of effective management. I thought it was widely understood amongst birders and people interested in wildlife that eutrophic lakes and wetlands are transient habitats that will disappear eventually forming climax woodland if left to their own devices. Actively managing them by removing trees and invading scrub is the only way to slow down this process. Maybe I mistakenly take it for granted that anyone interested in Wildlife would know this already.

Anyhow, a beautiful spring morning here on the flashes, three Redpolls, two Treecreepers, two Gadwalls, one Meadow Pipit, Skylark, Green Woodpecker and lots of early songsters are the best I can come up with so far. Onwards to the Ed Res.
 
One (most likely) last question for today:
I like this little hide at Hen Pool, the first hide on the way to the flashes to the left of the path. Trouble is, are there any sightings sometimes? I have been there twice for about an hour each time, but to no avail. I don't mind waiting longer, if there only seems to be a reasonable chance of seeing something...

Blimey, I had an early night 'cos I was feeling like crap yesterday evening and have missed a classic session of exchanges and banter. Oh well...

The Hen Pool hide is a real favourite of mine too. It's small, the openings are too low. Because of its proximity to the reed bed it can get incredibly hot and not a little pungent. The floor has recently been refurbished which should preclude the occasional visitations of unwanted vermin too.
But all this is far outweighed by the phenomenal opportunities it affords for incredibly close views of all sorts of species. It would take me hours (that I haven't got today) to trawl through the photos that I've taken from this hide but I recall seeing and capturing Reed Warbler, Sedge Warbler, Grasshopper Warbler (albeit it only a poor record), Cetti's Warbler (in their day). Several species of Hawkers and the odd vole etc. Furthermore, I have seen the very best photos of grass snakes and Water Rail taken from this hide. Whilst it's is (without doubt) more 'productive' in the warmer months only this last week I have received reliable reports of sightings of Kingfisher and Water Rail from the Hen Brook hide. Don't give up on it, just use it selectively and it'll reward you enormously.

SJV
 
thought i'd put a few pics on from last few days visits, thought the hide was a lot better than i'd expected it to be, nice to be back on the flashes again, enjoyed reading the thread lately who's on here hayes and chisora! don't ya just love it.

Good shots from a man with a flattened finger! ;) I especially like the GW & the Curlew.

Rob
 
I just remembered that I'd chucked a few Hen Pool photos on to FB... here are a few (all taken by me in the HP hide) as examples of what you can see there (they're massively reduced with a resultant quality reduction)...
 

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Can someone please explain why in simple terms for me and others who are confused? I have spoken to a number of members today and expressed my concerns - most of them agree with me! What do other members think?

As a newbie with no particular "affiliations" to anything other than the birds perhaps I can reassure you with some specifics. I originally joined the work parties because of concern regarding the impact of the drought on the Flashes. Not wishing to look an idiot, I'd done some research and, emboldened by informed opinion, I cautiously expressed those concerns to John who was running the particular work party. He was already ahead of me and the whole work party was focussed on that particular point anyway.

I have been on quite a few work parties since and everything I have done or seen done at UW over the last few months has been carefully explained and properly motivated - I know because I've looked it up (no offence to John, Phil or Paul - I'm just too curious and like to "know" what I'm doing). I have seen close up how many willows are encroaching into the reeds and the major woodland species which then begin to follow.

As Phil and John have explained it comes off a carefully informed management plan (with maps and everything) which is focussed on maintaining UW as a wetland - which, because of it's tiny size requires much more management than a lot of other reserves. I also know from experience that it is monitored regularly by the WWT officer.

So please let me reassure any doubters out there - unless you come to UW for its woodland and not it's wetland then the independent opinion suggests the work is necessary and appropriate. (A large tree can transpire ("sweat") many gallons of water every week). If you want further reassurance I'd recommend you start by checking out chapters 1, 6 and 7 of Managing Habitats for Conservation.

Personally I don't think we've done enough. Which is why we need all the help we can get at the final work party next week.

Ultimately of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating... all I can say is bring on the Spring!!

Paul
 
Blimey, I had an early night 'cos I was feeling like crap yesterday evening and have missed a classic session of exchanges and banter. Oh well...

The Hen Pool hide is a real favourite of mine too. It's small, the openings are too low. Because of its proximity to the reed bed it can get incredibly hot and not a little pungent. The floor has recently been refurbished which should preclude the occasional visitations of unwanted vermin too.
But all this is far outweighed by the phenomenal opportunities it affords for incredibly close views of all sorts of species. It would take me hours (that I haven't got today) to trawl through the photos that I've taken from this hide but I recall seeing and capturing Reed Warbler, Sedge Warbler, Grasshopper Warbler (albeit it only a poor record), Cetti's Warbler (in their day). Several species of Hawkers and the odd vole etc. Furthermore, I have seen the very best photos of grass snakes and Water Rail taken from this hide. Whilst it's is (without doubt) more 'productive' in the warmer months only this last week I have received reliable reports of sightings of Kingfisher and Water Rail from the Hen Brook hide. Don't give up on it, just use it selectively and it'll reward you enormously.

SJV

Couldn't agree more Sy. I have spent some hours in there seeing very little at all but when the breeding season starts you can get lovely views of birds collecting food for their young. And likewise have seen cracking Grass snake shots from there. In fact I know someone who had a GS sitting IN the hide with him!
The Moors car park (Hobby) Hide is similar. It depends on the time of year I think but there is always 'the potenial' for something different to turn up.

I understand that it can be frustrating to sit for hours for no 'reward' especially if you've travelled some distance or have time constraints but that is the nature of, well nature I guess. All the hides have their good times as well as not so good.

Rob
 

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