[Larry Wheatland]

I've just noticed that the IOC list recognises 3 species in this complex. Can someone please outline their ranges for me? I'd especially like to know if birds in NE China fall within Eastern Jungle Crow under this arrangement.

Many thanks for any clarification,

Larry

[Richard Klim]

Larry,

In IOC's split (proposed by Rasmussen & Anderton 2005), Eastern & Indian Jungle Crows are monotypic, with ranges as follows:

• Corvus levaillantii - from extreme SE Nepal eastwards through NE India to Burma, Thailand & N Malay Pen, also Andaman Is
• Corvus culminatus - Peninsular India & Sri Lanka, north to lowlands of Nepal

All other subspecies are retained within Large-billed Crow C macrorhynchos (including mandschuricus in NE China).

BirdLife International splits Jungle Crow C levaillantii, but including culminatus.

Rasmussen & Anderton 2005 actually suggested a further split of C japonensis (which would include mandschuricus), presumably leaving C macrorhynchos (including philippinus) restricted to Malaysia, Indonesia & Philippines.

Richard

[rockfowl]

Hi Richard,

I haven't followed this so it's pretty unclear to me. Brazil states that the split has been proposed giving Japanese Crow C. japonensis (including connectens and osai ) and Large-billed Crow C. macrorhynchos (including mandschuricus and colonorum)

Confused!

Mark

[dalat]

Hi,

the Robson SE-Asia 2008 edition gives:
Large-Billed Crow japonensis
Eastern Jungle Crow levaillantii
Southern Jungle Crow macrorhynchos (including Indochina, though stating that the Indochina population is debated, maybe being Eastern)

Florian

[Richard Klim]

Yes Mark, it is indeed confusing.

My understanding is that Rasmussen & Anderton suggested splitting all the northern subspecies as C japonensis (including the forms intermedius & tibetosinensis relevant to their field guide). This actually reflects the grouping proposed by Martens et al (2000) tabled in Dickinson, Dekker, Eck & Somadikarta 2004 (Systematic notes on Asian birds. 45. Types of the Corvidae):
http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/43939 (p123-124)

Mark Brazil (2009) mentions a narrower potential split of C japonensis (restricted to the 3 forms which occur in Japan).

Dickinson, Eck & Martens 2004 (Systematic notes on Asian birds. 44. A preliminary review of the Corvidae) includes a detailed review of possible treatments involving up to 7 species, including further potential splits of C philippinus and C osai (including connectens):
http://www.repository.naturalis.nl/document/43938 (p96-102)

Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:

• C japonensis (monotypic)
• C osai (including connectens)
• C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)
• C culminatus (monotypic)
• C levaillantii (monotypic)
• C macrorhynchos (monotypic)
• C philippinus (monotypic)

But clearly there's some way to go before consensus is reached on a definitive arrangement...

Richard

[rockfowl]

Thanks Richard,

Some way to go then!

[Richard Klim]

It'll be interesting to see the arrangement adopted for HBW14 when published later this year (Corvidae authors: dos Anjos, Debus, Madge & Marzluff). Anyone had a preview?

Richard

[Larry Wheatland]

Thanks folks, that simple huh?

[chowchilla]

Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland

Thanks folks, that simple huh?

As if.... So Larry, did you manage to squeeze another tick out of that muddle?

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland

Thanks folks, that simple huh?

...and I'm guessing it's not in the front running for your bird of the trip.

Richard

[Daniel Philippe]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:

• C japonensis (monotypic)
• C osai (including connectens)
• C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)
• C culminatus (monotypic)
• C levaillantii (monotypic)
• C macrorhynchos (monotypic)
• C philippinus (monotypic)

When I lived in South-east Asia – nineties and early twenties - life was easy, we had only 2 black crows : the Large-billed Corvus macrorhynchos and the Slender-billed C. enca. Today the first one could be up to seven species, what about the second one ?

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe

When I lived in South-east Asia – nineties and early twenties - life was easy, we had only 2 black crows : the Large-billed Corvus macrorhynchos and the Slender-billed C. enca. Today the first one could be up to seven species...

...or maybe even more: Rasmussen comments "intermedius and tibetosinensis differ markedly in both call-type and plumage, and themselves may represent two species, although they are said to intergrade in C Himalayas".

Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe

...what about the second one ?

Daniel, it's your turn to make the first bid.

Richard

[Daniel Philippe]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Daniel, it's your turn to make the first bid.

Well, I would guess from the literature that up to 5 ssp groups could be recognized:

- C. (e.) enca with compilator, mangoli and celebensis
- C. (e.) violaceus, monotypic
- C. (e.) pusillus, monotypic
- C. (e.) sierramadrensis, monotypic
- C. (e.) samarensis, monotypic

but I am not so sure.

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Daniel Philippe

Well, I would guess from the literature that up to 5 ssp groups could be recognized

Slender-billed Crow is unfortunately off the radar from within my rather introspective flat-earth Holarctic comfort zone - so for me it's a completely unknown mythical and exotic creature.

But Rheindt & Hutchinson 2007 [A photoshoot odyssey through the confused avian taxonomy of Seran and Buru (southern Moluccas) - BirdingASIA 7] commented:

• "We assume that a thorough analysis of vocal data would demonstrate species status for most of the current races in both C. violaceus and C. enca [my emphasis]. So until such a work has been presented, we can only urge birders to tape those crows in the field and be aware of impending splits."

At this rate we'll soon be splitting the subspecies...

Richard

[Larry Wheatland]

Originally Posted by chowchilla

As if.... So Larry, did you manage to squeeze another tick out of that muddle?

Rather shamefully a mumbled YES, as I've recently gone over to using the IOC list, more in frustration at the Clements list appearing to ignore just about everyone else (as my half-baked, less than half-informed layman's mind currently sees it.) Nothing to do with the greater number of splits of course .

Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!

[chowchilla]

Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland

Rather shamefully a mumbled YES, as I've recently gone over to using the IOC list, more in frustration at the Clements list appearing to ignore just about everyone else (as my half-baked, less than half-informed layman's mind currently sees it.) Nothing to do with the greater number of splits of course .

Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!

Funny what you say about Clements... Phil Gregory of Cassowary House hates the way that they (in his words) prevaricate forever over possible splits and other revisions. Mind you he does do consultancy for the IOC...

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Larry Wheatland

Richard's guess at it not quite making the top 399 out of the trip's 400 new birds is bang on though!

Well, if all the possible splits and sub-splits are considered (see also post #12), it probably deserves to be on your shortlist for scientific name of the trip:

Corvus (((macrorhynchos) japonensis) intermedius) colonorum mandschuricus

Richard

[Markus Lagerqvist]

Originally Posted by Richard Klim

Implementing all the above-mentioned possible splits would give:

• C japonensis (monotypic)
• C osai (including connectens)
• C intermedius (including mandschuricus, colonorum, tibetosinensis)
• C culminatus (monotypic)
• C levaillantii (monotypic)
• C macrorhynchos (monotypic)
• C philippinus (monotypic)

Richard

Has anyone heard any suggestions for English names for these?

Maybe something like this?

C. japonensis - Japanese Crow?
C. osai - Ryukyu Crow?
C. intermedius - ???
C. culminatus - Indian Jungle Crow
C. levaillantii - Indochinese Jungle Crow?
C. macrorhynchos - Sunda Jungle Crow?
C. philippinus - Philippine Jungle Crow?

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by Markus Lagerqvist

Has anyone heard any suggestions for English names for these?

Maybe something like this?

C. japonensis - Japanese Crow?
C. osai - Ryukyu Crow?
C. intermedius - ???

I already use 'Japanese Crow' (also used by Brazil 2009) and 'Ryukyu Crow' in my own checklist.

Taking post #12 into account, potentially splits intermedius further. I've provisionally used C (m) intermedius 'Himalayan Large-billed Crow' (monotypic) and C (m) colonorum 'Eastern Large-billed Crow' (incl mandshuricus, tibetosinensis) – clunky and unimaginative, I know!

Richard

[jacana]

I'm still battling with my Clements to IOC conversion, can anyone help me untangle the Large-billed/Jungle Crow ranges in Thailand. As I see it, Large-billed is at least in the North, And Jungle Crow is in the West and South, Where do the Central/Bangkok birds lie, and the eastern populations?

[Xenospiza]

I've got "Indochina" (except the north) included in the range for levaillantii, so I assume the birds in Bangkok/East Thailand are Eastern Jungle Crows as well.

[MJB]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

I've got "Indochina" (except the north) included in the range for levaillantii, so I assume the birds in Bangkok/East Thailand are Eastern Jungle Crows as well.

Having been watching what the IOC now class as Corvus culminatus in Gujurat last week, it was evident that there were two kinds of bill shapes! One was decurved, and had the appearance of being glued directly to the head, and the other was an extended rough diamond shape, thickest at the middle. Calls appeared identical, but the first shape was predominant, the second seen only once, in the observed individuals in a loose flock of 14 birds at Khejideya. The second shape varied noticeably in size.
Is this known, or is it perhaps a symptom of some disease?
MJB

[jacana]

Is there any recent information on the distribution of Eastern Jungle and Large-billed Crows in Thailand. We're discussing it in the ID forum and there still appears to be much confusion!

But maybe it's perfectly clear and I'm just being dense!

[lewis20126]

Not Thailand but the geographic "boundary" between thw two "species" in Assam is alleged to be the Bramaputra (north / south thereof). Given that it takes a crow less than a minute to fly across this, I suspect that (any?) boundary is not a clear cut as suggested. However if you were dealing with Cupwings (for example), a river of this width might faciltate divergence...

cheers, alan

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by jacana

Is there any recent information on the distribution of Eastern Jungle and Large-billed Crows in Thailand.

Not recent, but Dickinson et al 2004 (p101) states that Martens et al 2000 considers Corvus levaillantii to occur in "most of Thailand", with C macrorhynchos "seen as reaching further north than Prachuab and east through south-east Thailand into Indochina". But also comments: "Enough adult specimens from Burma, Thailand and Indochina should be re-examined to determine where macrorhynchos becomes levaillantii."