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Old Wednesday 29th February 2012, 17:22   #1
Helgesor
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Lesser Whitethroat from India

Lesser Whitethroat, but which subspecie ? or Hume's Whitethroat ?

Seen in Pench Nationalpark, Madya Pradesh, India, Jan 30th, 2012


Cheers, Helge
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Old Wednesday 29th February 2012, 18:17   #2
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Don't know if this would come under halimodendri ? (although cosmetically it doesn't appear to my eye..to look that much different to currucca . However the bill in the last image does appear perhaps longer...than what one might expect from that ssp.
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Old Wednesday 29th February 2012, 21:31   #3
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C'mon Heavyweights....have the common courtesy of replying to Helge! even if it's..wish I could help, but I don't have the requisite experience to comment...
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Old Friday 2nd March 2012, 05:58   #4
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Thanks Ken, seems this is too difficult.... I will just book it as curruca ssp. then.

Cheers, Helge
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Old Friday 2nd March 2012, 08:38   #5
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Thanks Ken, seems this is too difficult.... I will just book it as curruca ssp. then.

Cheers, Helge
Helge Hi...You have my empathy, some time ago I posted these (bad images) of a Lesser Whitethroat (I can't match it to any ssp). Although the images were less than perfect..I felt that there was enough information (ie shape of the crown cap..and the apparant heavy bill) to warrant some reply, however like yourself the images generated zero comment! The point being that I'd have thought that any ''self perceived heavyweight'' (there are a few on here), would have chipped-in...presumably the bigger they are..the harder they fall
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Old Friday 2nd March 2012, 09:15   #6
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Rising to Ken's goading: But definitely not considering myself an ornithological ID heavyweight. I will quote from Svensson's. The first line says it all really...
"Variation: Complex and not completely understood. Views differ on whether to split into more Ssp, and into more than one species. All taxa kept together in one species here pending further field research. Number of Ssp kept low... but matter of taste whether to recognise a few more subtle races with intergrading characters..."
He then goes on to list curruca, blythi, halimodendri, althaea, minula and margelanica.

The nearest fit (and I'm not willing to die on my sword over it) is IMVHO Ssp althaea.
I quote again (trying to leave out the descriptions that would only be possible to assess with bird in hand): "(mountains of NW Himalaya, probably west through Afghanistan to NE Iran, north to Russian Turkestan) is large and dark typical birds being rather distinctive. Lores and fore crown, sometimes whole crown, dark grey, largely eliminating contrast to dark ear-C; strong and rather dark bill; upper parts dark and slate grey with restricted brown tinge;... Birds in Iran, Afghanistan and Russian Turkestan are more variable and somewhat less typical tending more towards nominate."
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Old Friday 2nd March 2012, 10:55   #7
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althaea is now Hume's I believe. As far as i'm aware they occur throughout India but i'm not certain as to the known overlap between them and S.curruca ssp.
I see no reason why this isn't Hume's but the pictures almost look like two different individuals (?) with the top two and bottom two, perhaps a product of lighting and background etc.
The top two at least show what looks like Hume's with pale/grey tertial edges, dark lorals and generally dark appearance. The iris also appears very dark (although this can vary with age). I'd go for Hume's, although I haven't seen one myself!
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Old Friday 2nd March 2012, 15:59   #8
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Originally Posted by Sy V View Post
Rising to Ken's goading: But definitely not considering myself an ornithological ID heavyweight. I will quote from Svensson's. The first line says it all really...
"Variation: Complex and not completely understood. Views differ on whether to split into more Ssp, and into more than one species. All taxa kept together in one species here pending further field research. Number of Ssp kept low... but matter of taste whether to recognise a few more subtle races with intergrading characters..."
He then goes on to list curruca, blythi, halimodendri, althaea, minula and margelanica.

The nearest fit (and I'm not willing to die on my sword over it) is IMVHO Ssp althaea.
I quote again (trying to leave out the descriptions that would only be possible to assess with bird in hand): "(mountains of NW Himalaya, probably west through Afghanistan to NE Iran, north to Russian Turkestan) is large and dark typical birds being rather distinctive. Lores and fore crown, sometimes whole crown, dark grey, largely eliminating contrast to dark ear-C; strong and rather dark bill; upper parts dark and slate grey with restricted brown tinge;... Birds in Iran, Afghanistan and Russian Turkestan are more variable and somewhat less typical tending more towards nominate."
Thanks for the Info Sy V....sometimes a bit of prodding...goes a long way
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Old Saturday 3rd March 2012, 13:40   #9
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Thanks for the info and opinions. Very educational!
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Old Saturday 3rd March 2012, 13:47   #10
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Rising to Ken's goading: But definitely not considering myself an ornithological ID heavyweight.
Hi Sy - am trying hard not to make any "heavyweight" references; see you at the work party tomorrow to work off a few of those extra pounds!
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