[temmie]

@Bernd64: are you accusing Zeiss from fraudulous use of the 'made in Germany' tag or not? Are you saying that Gary, as a Zeiss representative, and some other representative I know personally, are lying?

Please back up your story.

[ronh]

Why should governments not redefine "made"? They redefined "truth" a long time ago.

To Germany's credit, according to Henry's links they are making it a little bit harder to say "made in Germany" now than it was before.

Almost surely, no law has been broken. You know Zeiss has lawyers to take care of that. The claim, however, is misleading. Its meaning is outside the common usage of words. That is apparently the whole idea behind the law. I presume that the other makers do the same thing, or they'd be really proud of themselves, and calling it "100% made in Germany".
Ron

[dalat]

Originally Posted by ronh

"100% made in Germany".

I guess most customors are aware that in todays global economy it is harldy possible to make anything that is 100% from one and the same place... Potatoes perhaps, but even then the fertilizer would be from Moroccan Phosphate ...

Wasn't there mention in the Victory HT thread, that the faboulous new Schott glass is made in one of Schotts factories in the US? Now how does that count for "Made in Germany" of the Victory?

[temmie]

They could laser-edge 'made in the USA' on the prisms for the US market, so each time you look through them, you would also see a kind of watermark

[seedyrom]

Tried them out today at Focal Point Optics near Warrington but not available to buy until the end of the month.

[chiffchaff123]

Originally Posted by seedyrom

Tried them out today at Focal Point Optics near Warrington but not available to buy until the end of the month.

What's your impression?

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by dalat

I guess most customors are aware that in todays global economy it is harldy possible to make anything that is 100% from one and the same place... Potatoes perhaps, but even then the fertilizer would be from Moroccan Phosphate ...

Wasn't there mention in the Victory HT thread, that the faboulous new Schott glass is made in one of Schotts factories in the US? Now how does that count for "Made in Germany" of the Victory?

You raise a good question. I don't know how the new "Made in Germany" laws will apply, but in addition to the steering column example I gave above, here's another way to get away with "Made in USA".

A table lamp is assembled in the U.S. from American-made brass, an American-made Tiffany-style lampshade, and an imported base. The base accounts for a small percent of the total cost of making the lamp. An unqualified "Made in USA" claim is deceptive for two reasons: The base is not far enough removed in the manufacturing process from the finished product to be of little consequence and it is a significant part of the final product."

Source: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bu...e-usa-standard

So too is the Schott glass "not far enough removed in the manufacturing process from the finished product" for the Zeiss HT to be discounted.

Can we count on obese Americans who lunch on McDonald's hamburgers and fries and wash the fat down with a liter of Coke to do the same quality job as lean, mean, working machine Germans? Ditto for the American QC inspectors. (Can you count how many stereotypes were made in the above paragraph? :-)

They are making the glass in the US for one reason and one reason only: It's cheaper. That's shocking isn't it? Is the U.S. becoming a third-world country?

Maybe the Schott workers are illegal aliens? We might find out after ICE busts the factory. :-)

Temmie, no need to get your knickers in a knot, I don't think anybody was seriously accusing Zeiss of fraud or Gary of lying (though maybe of not giving full disclosure, but the information may have been "embargoed").

The point was that German laws allow manufacturers to run fast and loose with the "Made in Germany" label such that there was no truth in advertising. The same was true in the U.S. before the "Made in USA" standard was passed.

Hopefully, the new laws will correct that problem, but I'm not totally convinced after seeing how the U.S. standard left enough loopholes to allow manufacturers to find ways within the standard to still deceive their customers.

Personally, I don't care where they make the parts, as long as they carefully supervise the QC. In fact, I'd rather they engineer the bins in Germany, make the parts elsewhere to reduce costs, and then assemble them in Germany so that if they ever make a design I like, I will be able to afford one.

I may be in the minority, but IMO, the last thing the world needs now is yet another $2K+ binocular.

Brock

[seedyrom]

Hi, Chiffchaff

Very nice bins. I couldn't tell much difference between these and the Victory FLs but my husband could see a clear difference.Nicer to hold because no ribbing on them. We didn't order any - bought Swarovskis!

[ceasar]

Brock,
Schott glass is made up here in NE Pennsylvania in Duryea which is between the Cities of Scranton and Wilkes Barre. It involves skilled work. It is not performed by "illegal aliens" but maybe by the grandchildren of "illegals" from Italy, Slovakia, Poland, the Ukraine etc.

Here are Senator Bob Casey's comments from the Schott factory on our trade policies:

http://m.citizensvoice.com/news/sena...tegy-1.1172866

Here is more local news about Schott:
http://citizensvoice.com/news/electe...#axzz1oonGixr2

And more here in conjunction with the University of Scranton:

http://citizensvoice.com/news/kanjor...#axzz1oonGixr2

Bob

[chiffchaff123]

Originally Posted by seedyrom

Hi, Chiffchaff

Very nice bins. I couldn't tell much difference between these and the Victory FLs but my husband could see a clear difference.Nicer to hold because no ribbing on them. We didn't order any - bought Swarovskis!

What did your husband think were clearer,the Victory FLs or the new Conquests?
Anthony.

[seedyrom]

He thought the FLs were clearer especially looking at twigs! He was going to buy them but some blue tits arrived and he looked at them through the Swarovskis.... and didn't! I had decided on my previous visit that I was going to get the SWs.
The new Conquests are certainly nice bins and brilliant for the money.

[brocknroller]

Bob,

Ah, third generation immigrants, well, I was close. :-) (That includes me, btw.)

I was just spoofing, of course. But not about it costing them less. Makes no sense to make the glass here and ship it Germany or wherever they assemble the Conquest HDs unless it costs less than manufacturing it in Germany.

Germany has the second highest labor costs in Europe (bested only by Norway). Not sure about glass workers, but German autoworkers make more than UA workers in the US!

Even though some of those jobs at Schott are "skilled," I'm guessing the workers are not unionized...

I agree with Casey about NAFTA. George H. W. Bush, who started the ball rolling, and Bill Clinton who signed the bill into law, and their cohorts in Congress sold us down the Rio Grande with that one.

NAFTA put a large Woolrich, PA clothes manufacturer out of business. The owner let his workers protest against NAFTA on the clock, but to no avail, big business won. American labor lost.

Clinton while signing the NAFTA bill stated that "NAFTA means jobs. American jobs, and good-paying American jobs. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't support this agreement."

But he would never lie to us, would he? Even under oath? Say no more.

Anyway, thanks for those links. Wish we could create our own manufacturing jobs. The plastics industry is pretty strong in PA, and many jobs in the industry require training and pay well.

I can't lament the departure of dirty, heavy industries like steel, which is making a comeback, thanks to Marcellus Shale. I just wrote about this, US Steel, which is making steel structures for gas drilling companies, is also using natural gas at their plants.

However, I am disappointed about our painfully slow transition to higher skilled, advanced manufacturing jobs (like Schott) and the number of displaced workers who are now working in lower paying jobs in the service sector.

Brock

Originally Posted by ceasar

Brock,
Schott glass is made up here in NE Pennsylvania in Duryea which is between the Cities of Scranton and Wilkes Barre. It involves skilled work. It is not performed by "illegal aliens" but maybe by the grandchildren of "illegals" from Italy, Slovakia, Poland, the Ukraine etc.

Here are Senator Bob Casey's comments from the Schott factory on our trade policies:

http://m.citizensvoice.com/news/sena...tegy-1.1172866

Here is more local news about Schott:
http://citizensvoice.com/news/electe...#axzz1oonGixr2

And more here in conjunction with the University of Scranton:

http://citizensvoice.com/news/kanjor...#axzz1oonGixr2

Bob

[LeeL]

Since I have found Apple products ("Designed in Palo Alto, Made in China")that are made in China to be quite high quality, I wouldn't bash the Zeiss HDs even if they were made there, and I question how much we really know about where anything consisting of assembled parts is "made." BUT, not hassling about all that, the question is, how do the HDs compare with the prior Conquest (old 8X40 with HD 8X42)? Zeiss seems to have changed the prisms (to the Schmidt-Pechans that I understand are used by Leica and Swarovski), has lots of verbiage about the coatings, and has produced something smaller and lighter, but are we dealing with the same or better brightness, resoluton, etc.? Are there other differences? Are they a good buy compared to the Zeiss Victory/Swarovski price level?

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by LeeL

Since I have found Apple products ("Designed in Palo Alto, Made in China")that are made in China to be quite high quality, I wouldn't bash the Zeiss HDs even if they were made there, and I question how much we really know about where anything consisting of assembled parts is "made." BUT, not hassling about all that, the question is, how do the HDs compare with the prior Conquest (old 8X40 with HD 8X42)? Zeiss seems to have changed the prisms (to the Schmidt-Pechans that I understand are used by Leica and Swarovski), has lots of verbiage about the coatings, and has produced something smaller and lighter, but are we dealing with the same or better brightness, resoluton, etc.? Are there other differences? Are they a good buy compared to the Zeiss Victory/Swarovski price level?

LeeL,

I think the "hassling" on BF was more about expecting Zeiss to give full disclosure about where their bins are actually made rather than putting them down if they turned out to have parts made outside of Europe.

No doubt, there are buyers who would drop the Conquests like a "hot potato" if they found out they were made in China. Some due to a belief that "Made in China" = poor quality, and some because they would rather be "dead than 'red'". The latter crowd is dying out.

China's government is no longer as tightly centralized, they are promoting private enterprise, they have a growing middle class, and US consumers are adjusting to the new global reality, like it or not. I see people who own old pickups and luxury cars both shopping at Walmart these days.

I don't care where Zeiss makes their bins (although I don't think they should label them "Made in Germany" if they are actually "designed and assembled in Germany with parts from other countries") as long as they keep a close eye on QC.

You expect some bad samples at all price points, but more if they are made in China, which generally has not come up to the same level of QC as products made in Japan or Germany and Austria.

However, making parts in China or Lower Slovenia helps lower costs, and for some of us that's not an insignificant factor. So while you might get more sample variation, you get a lower price. There are always tradeoffs. You decide which you can or cannot live with.

Although shorter and more compact, SP prisms have inherent light loss that requires using a mirrored surface. First came aluminum, then silver, and now we have dielectric coatings, which, if added in enough layers, will reflect 99% of the light.

Back in the day when SPs were still the light loss leaders vs. porro prisms and A-K prisms, roofs that contained SPs were dimmer. The Zeiss 7x42 B/GA was already at 87% light transmission in the 1990s because A-K prisms didn't require mirrored surfaces.

Zeiss has used this fact to sell its roofs, but now that its abandoning that prism design in its second tier line to make slimmer, more compact roofs, it has to spin the ad copy the other way around and convince buyers that the SPs are not going to decrease the HD's brightness compared to older Conquests or full sized FLs, because their latest coatings can compensate for the SP's light loss.

Since midsized FLs have SP prisms and have been praised for their brightness, it shouldn't be too hard a sell for the Conquests.

The fact that a gazllion layers of dielectric coatings can actually do this has made it possible for Zeiss to make slimmer, more compact roofs and apparently this is what buyers want.

We won't really know until the comparisons you asked about are done and buyers can make up their minds. No brainer, in the case of the HDs, with their better specs and no increase in price, but I think there would be a lot more grumbling and hold outs if Zeiss had dropped the A-K prisms from their HTs. Just because.

BrocK

[WilsonsWarbler]

Maybe they are made in Germany of Hungarian materials?

Either way, I tried a pair & they are pretty nice bins! Only thing I can complain about is the CA isn't controlled as it would be on an FL.

[xu42]

Originally Posted by brocknroller

LeeL,

No doubt, there are buyers who would drop the Conquests like a "hot potato" if they found out they were made in China. Some due to a belief that "Made in China" = poor quality, and some because they would rather be "dead than 'red'". The latter crowd is dying out.

China's government is no longer as tightly centralized, they are promoting private enterprise, they have a growing middle class, and US consumers are adjusting to the new global reality, like it or not. I see people who own old pickups and luxury cars both shopping at Walmart these days.


BrocK

A factory 10 minutes' drive from my home produce almost world's half HTC phones, and will make 1/3 Iphones in the future. The workers in it will reach 100000 soon, more than the population of my town...

For the conquest HD, I have asked one of my friends in the Chinese binocular industry. He will use his resource to investigate the possible factory might has connection with HD. So far, no sign indicates HD's made in China.

[ceasar]

Originally Posted by brocknroller

LeeL,

I think the "hassling" on BF was more about expecting Zeiss to give full disclosure about where their bins are actually made rather than putting them down if they turned out to have parts made outside of Europe.

No doubt, there are buyers who would drop the Conquests like a "hot potato" if they found out they were made in China. Some due to a belief that "Made in China" = poor quality, and some because they would rather be "dead than 'red'". The latter crowd is dying out.

China's government is no longer as tightly centralized, they are promoting private enterprise, they have a growing middle class, and US consumers are adjusting to the new global reality, like it or not. I see people who own old pickups and luxury cars both shopping at Walmart these days.

.................................................. ................

BrocK

Brock,

By coincidence on that note I had a talk just yesterday with a woman who owns an old pickup who is reluctant to shop in the huge new Walmart after dark in our home town because she does not think it is safe to walk back through their parking lot to her truck during those hours.

And China's growing middle class and it's future as it may compare to our own may be determined by it's current demographics.

This recent article from Asia Times by David Goldman raises some questions about it. It is titled: "It might not be an Asian century after all." It also has this thought provoking quote: "China still looks like the wild west to overseas investors and not without reason: China is a great leap away from Western standards of governance and rule of law."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/MK22Ad01.html


Bob

[Chosun Juan]

Bob, Brock,

Very good points.
(Bob from an investor's perspective - you've nailed the nagging doubts).

But I can think of a heck of another good reason people would be adverse to buying 'chin bins'.

Why on earth would you pay 'Euro' prices for Chinese labour costs ??!!

Unless of course you feel that poor old Zeiss profitability could use your charity !


Chosun

[temmie]

A (simple) question for Garymh:
will there be a Zeiss HT 7x42?
If not, will there be any new 7x42 in 2012?

[FrankD]

Originally Posted by temmie

A (simple) question for Garymh:
will there be a Zeiss HT 7x42?
If not, will there be any new 7x42 in 2012?

Great question!

[St. Elmo]

In today's global market, I don't expect all of a product to be made in the stated country of manufacture. BUT, I would really like to see meaningful disclosure other than "Made in XXX" emblazoned on a product (and bragged about) just because the product is in minimum compliance with a loophole riddled law or regulation.

How about this for meaningful disclosure....

If a product is really made 100% in XXX (all the way down to the screws, but excepting truly raw materials) then it is entitled to bear a "Made in XXX" tag.

If not, then how about a product tag that states "Product origin available at [insert internet address]"... and that address would state the following:

Designed in A, Assembled in B, from components manufactured in C, D, and E with final inspection and quality control in A.

That's meaningful disclosure (and wishful thinking).

So, at this time, all I can be assured of is that the new Conquests meet the minimum requirement under applicable law and regulation to bear the "Made in Germany" tag. Since CZ's of any level ain't cheap, I want more than assurance of minimum compliance.

[St. Elmo]

And, yes, it is a great question. 7x42's are great!

[brocknroller]

Originally Posted by St. Elmo

And, yes, it is a great question. 7x42's are great!

Here is the answer:

Future of the 7x42 Configuration

Brock

[ceasar]

Originally Posted by brocknroller

Here is the answer:

Future of the 7x42 Configuration

Brock

Get one now!

(The binocular-not that hairy duck!)

Bob

[ivan86]

Nothing with a industrial production today is fully made in a country, nothing, not only binoculars.

I can tell you without doubt that there is not an alpha binocular made only with materials in the original country.

greets