[peter.jones]

Originally Posted by Clive Watson

For photography, they are often essential.

Is that true though?

If I was to go through 20+ years of photos I have taken, I can honestly say next to zero of my favourites were from a hide. I can think of just 1 or 2. Thinking about it, quite a few were from a car though. I'd have thought public "fixed" hides were too restrictive for photography. You have no control of your vertical position for a start which reduces your chance of an eye level shot. You've also got very little say in the sun's position compared to being outside.

As a birder, or a photographer, I certainly wouldn't waste my time going into a verbal war over a hide!

[angusmcoatup]

Originally Posted by SueO

I have been in two hides. One in Pine Bluff, Arkansas and one in Ostia, Italy. The combined time was about a half hour. I can't see why anybody would want to spend their birding time in one. Much too restrictive; you can't follow the birds. You might as well plant some good trees and shrubs, set up a bird feeder and bath in your yard and install a picture window. Vivian, maybe a bird walk would be more rewarding.

In the UK there are many advantages to sitting in a bird hide instead of in a bush, behind a wall, up a tree etc. Not least of which it helps prevent being beaten to death by local vigilantes, suspicious of scruffy binocular wielding types.

[TheThing]

Originally Posted by angusmcoatup

In the UK there are many advantages to sitting in a bird hide instead of in a bush, behind a wall, up a tree etc. Not least of which it helps prevent being beaten to death by local vigilantes, suspicious of scruffy binocular wielding types.

And you'd miss the gentle aromas!

[Clive Watson]

Originally Posted by peter.jones

Is that true though?

If I was to go through 20+ years of photos I have taken, I can honestly say next to zero of my favourites were from a hide. I can think of just 1 or 2. Thinking about it, quite a few were from a car though. I'd have thought public "fixed" hides were too restrictive for photography. You have no control of your vertical position for a start which reduces your chance of an eye level shot. You've also got very little say in the sun's position compared to being outside.

I agree that very few public reserve hides are much good for photography. There's a few, like the Swan Link hide at Martin Mere, but not many. My use of the word 'hides' in my previous post was meant to include little portable hides that photographers erect themselves, not just large public hides. I also agree that cars can be good as hides too, but it depends on the terrain. I don't tend to use them that much for that reason.

[Chris D]

Originally Posted by TheThing

And you'd miss the gentle aromas!

Wait till' you're invaded by an army of taco wagons.

[James Thomas]

I had to use a general work area today. I sat there happily working on an exam paper but this was all spoiled when some woman came to the computer next to me and started typing, she was really fast as well. I had been "in the zone" and found the rattling of the keys extremely disruptive. I think it's time they brought back typing pools, that way anyone wanting to type at the computer can sit away from us normal people so they can enjoy each others racket whilst we put ink to paper and occasionally click the mouse.

[John Cantelo]

Apart from the irritating, but minor annoyance of clacking shutters, my only complaint about the rise of 'photo-birders' is that they tend to hog the best position in hides rather longer than old style bin 'n' scope birders. On busy reserves this can be a problem,

[apbarr]

John,

Have you just coined a new tag, will "photo-birder" be used with scorn every time one of us annoying, shutter clicking, hide hogging individuals appears on a reserve.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by peter.jones

Is that true though?

If I was to go through 20+ years of photos I have taken, I can honestly say next to zero of my favourites were from a hide. I can think of just 1 or 2. Thinking about it, quite a few were from a car though. I'd have thought public "fixed" hides were too restrictive for photography. You have no control of your vertical position for a start which reduces your chance of an eye level shot. You've also got very little say in the sun's position compared to being outside.

As a birder, or a photographer, I certainly wouldn't waste my time going into a verbal war over a hide!

I get round the problem by arriving very early then departing as the main crowd arrives,moaning that someones already there.In reality its the early bird that catches the worm.

Steve.

[the black fox]

i don't think i have laughed so much at a multi page thread since reading through the "Veet for men " reviews on amazon u.k ,definitely recommended reading for some of the twittish twitchers on here .
i will now relish going to my rspb hide (royal society 4 photographing birds) armed with my camera with super mega burst mode ,long lens,big tripod with swingy head and know that it seems i can do what i like as if i'm gonna get blamed for it i might as well do it ,so look out for a loud mouthed cockney OAP ,carrying his egg butties in a paper bag ,(won't pay the welsh gov. 5p for a plastic bag) where i shall sit down and eat my sarnies and talk loudly smoke a odd cigar or three ,and hopefully burp and fart very loudly .as this seems to be what fluorescent jacketed bird watchers expect of me ITS gonna happen ,in the words of ali G "KEEP IT REAL"

[Phil Andrews]

Originally Posted by the black fox

i don't think i have laughed so much at a multi page thread since reading through the "Veet for men " reviews on amazon u.k ,definitely recommended reading for some of the twittish twitchers on here .
i will now relish going to my rspb hide (royal society 4 photographing birds) armed with my camera with super mega burst mode ,long lens,big tripod with swingy head and know that it seems i can do what i like as if i'm gonna get blamed for it i might as well do it ,so look out for a loud mouthed cockney OAP ,carrying his egg butties in a paper bag ,(won't pay the welsh gov. 5p for a plastic bag) where i shall sit down and eat my sarnies and talk loudly smoke a odd cigar or three ,and hopefully burp and fart very loudly .as this seems to be what fluorescent jacketed bird watchers expect of me ITS gonna happen ,in the words of ali G "KEEP IT REAL"

Smoking a cigar in a hide would be illegal whether you are a photographer or a birder.

[Bananafishbones]

Originally Posted by John Cantelo

Apart from the irritating, but minor annoyance of clacking shutters, my only complaint about the rise of 'photo-birders' is that they tend to hog the best position in hides rather longer than old style bin 'n' scope birders. On busy reserves this can be a problem,

Totally disagree John - I never sit too long in a busy hide when people are standing behind and without being too age -ist the retired folk of our hobby beit either scoper or photographer, I find that they are the ones that hog the prime seats while chattering away about pensions and
the price of boiled sweets - and yes they hog the middle lane of motorways too.

[Jaff]

Originally Posted by Steve Arlow

I wonder where those photos in all the glossy magazines that everyone always enjoy looking at come from, the photo fairy perhaps.....?

Attached picture.

I was on my own, apart from the person taking the picture that is attached, waiting to photograph a Ruppell's Warbler in Israel with no one else around and the minute the bird appears where I had set up a crowd of birders behind me also suddenly appears. Although I wanted to move to a better position to get a leafless shot of the bird I didn't as I would have been blocking their view and would have upset their enjoyment of the bird, which they would not have seen had I not been there in the first place. I actually lost the shot I was waiting for. Us inconsiderate, annoying machine gun rattling big gun camera weilding photographers...

What's more annoying, sitting in a hide with photographers taking photos of the birds or a photographer who has painstakeningly made careful approach to get the confidence of the target bird only to have it flushed by a numpty birdwatcher coming right up behind you asking 'what you photographing'. Generally I now just point to the distant dot on the horizon and say 'that, until you flushed it'. Consideration doesn't always go both ways.

I would just like to echo this post.

I still consider myself very much a birder, photography has not replaced my love of birding but enhanced it. There are times when I am in full on photographic mode though and I may be out somewhere waiting patiently in camo or a pop-up hide/bag hide for that one special moment with a bird that I have painstakingly prepared for. So will someone please tell me how that translates into "By all means come and stand over my shoulder trying to see what it is I'm after or have a good loud chat with me because it's not like I'm sat here quietly in all this clobber because I lost a bet or something is it!?". Then they'll just just walk off when it becomes apparent that there is nothing there, having long since been flushed by the very careless and nonchalant approach of such persons. It is understandable in some ways from just curious lay people who might not know any better but from birders one expects a lot more respect for the situation and the photographer involved and seldom do we get it. I'm sure many photographers have experienced this or similar. If reserve hides are the supposed refuges of, for lack of a better term, 'purist' birders then the great outdoors is the refuge of a photographer where he can indeed photograph things on his own terms as some have said and to then be disturbed by those who should truly know better is every bit as reprehensible as what photographers are accused of in hides.

I find this 'holier than thou' attitude amongst some to now be very tiresome and quite simply birders are every bit as capable of selfish and thoughtless behaviour that can spoil the enjoyment of a much loved hobby in just the same manner as vice versa. Do we all like to go out and enjoy nature or don't we? How we choose to interact with it is the only difference as I see it.

[christineredgate]

Originally Posted by Jaff

I would just like to echo this post.

I still consider myself very much a birder, photography has not replaced my love of birding but enhanced it. There are times when I am in full on photographic mode though and I may be out somewhere waiting patiently in camo or a pop-up hide/bag hide for that one special moment with a bird that I have painstakingly prepared for. So will someone please tell me how that translates into "By all means come and stand over my shoulder trying to see what it is I'm after or have a good loud chat with me because it's not like I'm sat here quietly in all this clobber because I lost a bet or something is it!?". Then they'll just just walk off when it becomes apparent that there is nothing there, having long since been flushed by the very careless and nonchalant approach of such persons. It is understandable in some ways from just curious lay people who might not know any better but from birders one expects a lot more respect for the situation and the photographer involved and seldom do we get it. I'm sure many photographers have experienced this or similar. If reserve hides are the supposed refuges of, for lack of a better term, 'purist' birders then the great outdoors is the refuge of a photographer where he can indeed photograph things on his own terms as some have said and to then be disturbed by those who should truly know better is every bit as reprehensible as what photographers are accused of in hides.

I find this 'holier than thou' attitude amongst some to now be very tiresome and quite simply birders are every bit as capable of selfish and thoughtless behaviour that can spoil the enjoyment of a much loved hobby in just the same manner as vice versa. Do we all like to go out and enjoy nature or don't we? How we choose to interact with it is the only difference as I see it.

Yes,agree with both Steve and Adam.

[the black fox]

very eloquently put jaff ,took the words out of my mouth .i came into this from the other direction .i.e photography first then birding/wildlife but as with yourself the wildlife/birding side has enhanced the photography enjoyment totally and has taken over the lives of not only myself but the whole family .
you will always get the inquisitive genuine birdwatcher thats human nature but i find its usually groups of chattering women who are the worst offenders ,always toting expensive bins ,always have a group member who is deaf so the others have to shout at her ,and ALWAYS wearing brightly coloured clothes .and always incapable of seeing a photographer in camouflage clothing .

MILORD I REST MY CASE !!

[angusmcoatup]

Why don't we all make friends, then start on those bloody Lepidopterists, Herpetologists and the unspeakably filthy Botanists?

[Hughv]

And then we'll stamp out philatelists!

Originally Posted by angusmcoatup

Why don't we all make friends, then start on those bloody Lepidopterists, Herpetologists and the unspeakably filthy Botanists?

[Robert Wallace]

No chance they are real naturalists, never use puplic hides and use scientific names (Latin) for species. But they do take lots of photographs, although often with an unobtrusive macro lens.

[fogboundturtle]

I come from a different world : Astronomy. We cursed at light pollution all the time but one thing is common : we welcome everyone. We educate them about the hobby. We take the time to give them the etiquette. I don't know why "birders" are not the same way.

I am one of those guy who comes for the pleasure and challenge of bird photography but then I go on the web and read about the birds I have capture and educate myself a little. When people ask me about my shot, I can tell them more about the bird. I have been reading this board for years but recently joined in.

[Farnboro John]

Sat in my local hide for a couple of hours today (its members only so not stuffed full of noisy grockles and photographer-haters).

Unfortunately 23 youths of mixed sex decided to trespass on the reserve, go swimming in the lake, throw mud and insults at each other, piss in the lake (and carried on swimming in it - yuck), one went skinny-dipping, a couple were heavy petting waist deep, etc.

The old 500mm f4 comes in handy for recording such behaviour and I have ID pix of all the perps.

The hide has a notice from the Blackwater Valley Conservation Partnership that alerts birders to the likelihood of trespassers and gives a phone number (+ mobile for outside office hours) to ring. I rang it. The bloke on the other end was urbane, appreciative and rang off. I waited an hour in the hide and nothing happened, which I think is pretty damn poor.

Ask me if I'll bother ringing again.

Nice pix of Lapwing, Moorhen and Mallard did little to salvage the evening.

John

[TheThing]

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

...
The old 500mm f4 comes in handy for recording such behaviour and I have ID pix of all the perps.
...

John

Sad thing is that you're more likely to get into trouble for this then they are for trespassing! 'me 'uman rights have been breached!'

[Farnboro John]

Originally Posted by TheThing

Sad thing is that you're more likely to get into trouble for this then they are for trespassing! 'me 'uman rights have been breached!'

Thats why they aren't on here.....

I don't think I can get into trouble for sending them to proper authorities at the proper time. And if it comes to it the Daily Star can make their own mind up!

John

[stevo]

Originally Posted by the black fox

very eloquently put jaff ,took the words out of my mouth .i came into this from the other direction .i.e photography first then birding/wildlife but as with yourself the wildlife/birding side has enhanced the photography enjoyment totally and has taken over the lives of not only myself but the whole family .
you will always get the inquisitive genuine birdwatcher thats human nature but i find its usually groups of chattering women who are the worst offenders ,always toting expensive bins ,always have a group member who is deaf so the others have to shout at her ,and ALWAYS wearing brightly coloured clothes .and always incapable of seeing a photographer in camouflage clothing .

MILORD I REST MY CASE !!

Well put & i`ll add to it by saying this,they`ll ask you what a bird is you`ll tell them & then they`ll argue with you over its ID.

Steve.