[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by rmielcarek

Mike

surely the thick, heavily reflexed leaves in your middle photo suggest an Early Marsh influence?

The Bateman and Denholm systematics paper in the latest issue of New Journal of Botany states that populations of D. traunsteinerioides from Ireland, North Wales, northest England and western Scotland 'show remarkable consistency in all molecular datasets'. it does go on to mention that 'plastid haplotypes suggest modest introgression with other dactylorchids in the Anglesey populations but the only substantial genetic deviation detected affected a population in western Ireland. I'm no expert (I'm not even sure what half that means) but it suggests to me that they are happy with the Anglesey populations.

Flowering times seem to differ between sites in Anglesey; when we were up there on May 25th we found Pugsleys in flower at a site but nothing else while at Cors Bordeilio there was nothing in flower. We didn't visit Cors Goch.

Rich M

Exactly Rich, these are the plants I thought looked like Alan's and thus not really conforming with within the description of traunsteinerioides, especially the middle plant which seems to show some incarnata.

I was rather surprised to discover they were 'happy' with the Anglesey traunsteinerioides - I suppose they don't have Southern Marsh orchids up there so there's no chance of them being a subsp. of that species and thus must fundamentally be something distinct.

On a broader theme; the Dactylorchids at Cors Bodeilio (and indeed the orchid flora in general) is fascinating and very diverse. Last year I found what appeared to be 3 different Early-marsh subsp within metres of each other!

Mike.

[hatfullofsky]

A trip to a wood on the Sussex/Surrey border on the 15th July produced some helleborines (in bud atm). I was told they are Broad-leaved helleborines. One of them lacked chlorophyll and had all its leaves chomped off, presumably by some enterprising slug or snail.

[Wood Nymph]

Hi all,

Was wondering if anybody knew of any reliable sites in Cumbria where I could find Creeping lady's tresses. Still yet to find any, and I think my dad would go mad if we had another failed mission! Any PMs with help would be greatly appreciated

[Ghostly Vision]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

Do you think leptochila flowering success might be a good indicator of ghost floweing success? Both being so light intolerant, maybe there's a good correlation there?

Mike.

Hi Mike

Whereas leptochila is a partial indicator species of Ghost in the UK, this is not necessarily so on the Continent. Epipactis prupurata is the only species in that genus to tolerate light levels as low as Epipogium.

In addition, the fungal partner for Epipogium, Inocybe, is not shared with either Epipactis, I believe - both of which use pollination and seed-set to reproduce primarily.

Today was talking to a friend who knows the Chilterns well, and he said his favourite leptochila site, where there are normally 30+, has none this year. The phyllanthes, helleborine and purpurata are also having averge to rubbish years. This mirrors my experience yesterday.

To make matters worse, wet weather at this time has produced a proliferance of slugs and snails. I saw a lot yesterday in the Beechwoods.

In the unlikely event a Ghost flowers, you'll have to be quick in finding it, is my guess!

Sean

ps Alan - I raised the canal question as yesterday I noticed a lot of brimming rivers and flooded fields in the Chilterns, but went over two canals, both of which had normal water levels!

[Ghostly Vision]

Originally Posted by Wood Nymph

Hi all,

Was wondering if anybody knew of any reliable sites in Cumbria where I could find Creeping lady's tresses. Still yet to find any, and I think my dad would go mad if we had another failed mission! Any PMs with help would be greatly appreciated

There is only one to my knowledge. You need the warden to take you on, though. He works for Natural England, who manage the site. If you do a search for Natural England in Cumbria and call the Wigton office, they may be able to help.

Sean

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

There is only one to my knowledge. You need the warden to take you on, though. He works for Natural England, who manage the site. If you do a search for Natural England in Cumbria and call the Wigton office, they may be able to help.

Sean

Center Parcs is surely the best?!

Mike.

[heakl]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

Hi Alan

I saw very similar plants from both Cors Goch and Bodeilio last year. The only species they can be are Narrow-leaved Marsh orchid as I'm sure you're aware both sites are famed for. However, most the plants don't really fit the description for traunsteinerioides with many (as yours) showing virtually no lip-markings at all, unusual lilac shades and atypical lip dimensions. The range of colour alone is enough to question this taxon, particularly at Cors Bodeilio. I think it's possible there is quite a lot of introgression with Heath Spotted, Northern Marsh and Early-marsh at both sites although the former 2 aren't in great evidence. It's quite probable these populations will be reassigned to something other than traunsteinerioides, like the southern populations already have.

(The first 3 from left were taken at Cors Goch and other 2 from Cors Bodeilio).

Mike.

Thanks Mike,
I was hoping to get the benefit of your local knowledge. I thought when I took the photos, and of a similar plant close by, that I was looking at Pugsley's but more by eliminating everything else that actual identification.

Although there are a number of these somewhat odd plants, there were also several (what seemed to me) absolutely true to form traunsteinerioides. In view of the dact diversity on the site I suppose it would be surprising if traunsteinerioides hybrids didn't exist.

Thanks again
Alan

[Ghostly Vision]

Originally Posted by rmielcarek

Mike

surely the thick, heavily reflexed leaves in your middle photo suggest an Early Marsh influence?

The Bateman and Denholm systematics paper in the latest issue of New Journal of Botany states that populations of D. traunsteinerioides from Ireland, North Wales, northest England and western Scotland 'show remarkable consistency in all molecular datasets'. it does go on to mention that 'plastid haplotypes suggest modest introgression with other dactylorchids in the Anglesey populations but the only substantial genetic deviation detected affected a population in western Ireland. I'm no expert (I'm not even sure what half that means) but it suggests to me that they are happy with the Anglesey populations.

Flowering times seem to differ between sites in Anglesey; when we were up there on May 25th we found Pugsleys in flower at a site but nothing else while at Cors Bordeilio there was nothing in flower. We didn't visit Cors Goch.

Rich M

Hi Richard

I would be cautious about this statement without knowing the sample sizes, which I can't find mentioned in the paper. Certainly some of Mike's pictures do not look much like Pugsley's at all.....but I am a self-confessed Dactylophobe.

The difficulty now, since the southern plants (more specifically the Norfolk ones, the most typical "Pugsley's") have been re-identified, is knowing exactly which morphological characteristics identify Pugsley's. If you read the descriptions in the paper, they are (purposefully?) ambiguous.

Much more field study is now required in my opinion.

Cheers

Sean

[Wood Nymph]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

There is only one to my knowledge. You need the warden to take you on, though. He works for Natural England, who manage the site. If you do a search for Natural England in Cumbria and call the Wigton office, they may be able to help.

Sean

Thanks, I'll ring tomorrow

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Hi Mike

Whereas leptochila is a partial indicator species of Ghost in the UK, this is not necessarily so on the Continent. Epipactis prupurata is the only species in that genus to tolerate light levels as low as Epipogium.

In addition, the fungal partner for Epipogium, Inocybe, is not shared with either Epipactis, I believe - both of which use pollination and seed-set to reproduce primarily.

Today was talking to a friend who knows the Chilterns well, and he said his favourite leptochila site, where there are normally 30+, has none this year. The phyllanthes, helleborine and purpurata are also having averge to rubbish years. This mirrors my experience yesterday.

To make matters worse, wet weather at this time has produced a proliferance of slugs and snails. I saw a lot yesterday in the Beechwoods.

In the unlikely event a Ghost flowers, you'll have to be quick in finding it, is my guess!

Sean

ps Alan - I raised the canal question as yesterday I noticed a lot of brimming rivers and flooded fields in the Chilterns, but went over two canals, both of which had normal water levels!

Thanks Sean, seems logical.

I saw more than enough slugs lurking around when I went down, including some monstrous pale yellow ones - hopefully carnivorous!

Mike.

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by heakl

Thanks Mike,
I was hoping to get the benefit of your local knowledge. I thought when I took the photos, and of a similar plant close by, that I was looking at Pugsley's but more by eliminating everything else that actual identification.

Although there are a number of these somewhat odd plants, there were also several (what seemed to me) absolutely true to form traunsteinerioides. In view of the dact diversity on the site I suppose it would be surprising if traunsteinerioides hybrids didn't exist.

Thanks again
Alan

Yeah, there are definitely a good proportion of the standard traunsteinerioides aswell. Anglesey really holds some quite unique fens it must be said.

Mike.

[rmielcarek]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Hi Richard

I would be cautious about this statement without knowing the sample sizes, which I can't find mentioned in the paper. Certainly some of Mike's pictures do not look much like Pugsley's at all.....but I am a self-confessed Dactylophobe.

The difficulty now, since the southern plants (more specifically the Norfolk ones, the most typical "Pugsley's") have been re-identified, is knowing exactly which morphological characteristics identify Pugsley's. If you read the descriptions in the paper, they are (purposefully?) ambiguous.

Much more field study is now required in my opinion.

Cheers

Sean

Sean

I only quoted the paper to counter the idea, put forward by Mike, that the Anglesey population will quite probably be reassigned.

I suspect that like other dacts Pugsleys is really quite variable. If you go back to a precursor Bateman article in the April 2011 HOS Journal you will find the statement that probably says it all - "a morphologically extreme plant of taxon A will look more like an average plant of taxon B than an average plant of taxon A, a recipe for the absence of truly diagnostic characters and hence precluding reliable identification of individual plants, let alone of any hybrids".

The same problems apply to the identification of D. praetermissa ssp schoenophila but I know that populations of this are currently being examined and studied.

And yes, Dacts are a pain!

Rich

[IJS]

Been into the Chilterns this evening. Found loads of frog orchids at the site visited. They ranged in size from tiny 1-2" hight to enormous 7-8". Colours also ranged substantially from red tinged to pure green. This variation was within a few inches between plants too.

All in all an enjoyable evening!

[Ghostly Vision]

Visited a couple of sites in the south today:

1. Nice spot with plenty of Marsh helleborine in perfect flower (quite a few yet to open too), including many ochroleuca types. Also lots of Marsh Fragrant orchid, perhaps a week too early for these but still a good show. A few Common twayblades and good numbers of Southern Marsh orchid. The latter showed quite a variety of colours and patterns, and one plant in particular had spotted leaves and flowers that looked half way to Common spotted - which doesn't occur at this site!

Second site had a putative hybrid Broad-leaved x Green-flowered helleborine in 2010, which was eaten off before it could flower in 2011. Where there were c70 GFH two years ago, this year there were none - just a single Broad-leaved. More evidence of a poor Epipactis year.

Pics below of the Southern marsh & hybrid types today. Ignore the titles, all but the last two were probably just variant southern Marsh. The last two show the flowers and leaves of the probable hybrid.

[IJS]

Been out again this evening through the wind and rain. Found some lovely late flowering burnt tip orchids. A first for me. Difficult conditions to get any photos though!

[black52bird]

Interested to see that for the second time recently wild orchids have made a national newspaper. Following the report, and photo, about Red Helleborine being in flower a couple of weeks ago, last Sunday's Observer (15th July, page 17) ran a long piece called " Everything's coming up orchids as rain benefits wild flowers at expense of crops" with a large photo of a Marbled White butterfly on a Common Spotted Orchid (I suppose - I get the European edition here in Budapest, so B&W photo, not colour). It says:
"Many of the nation's rarest wild flowers have flourished after several months' deluge, experts revealed last week - particularly the bee orchid, distinctive for the bee-like appearance of its flowers." (it then quotes Andy Byfield of the charity Plantlife). It goes on to explain that "plants like these do well when you have arid conditions one year and very wet ones the following year. If it keeps on raining next year, coarse grass will eventually swamp the grounds they are growing in and all the gains will be lost."
Most of the rest of the article after this promising beginning then goes on to bemoan the problems cultivators of various food crops are having.

best

David

[Jonny721]

Nice to see a few Orchids out today on the sand dunes at Lytham. In total we found 9 Pyramidal, 10 Common Spotted, 6 Dune Helleborine and 4 Green Flowered Helleborine.

[rmielcarek]

Originally Posted by Jonny721

Nice to see a few Orchids out today on the sand dunes at Lytham. In total we found 9 Pyramidal, 10 Common Spotted, 6 Dune Helleborine and 4 Green Flowered Helleborine.

Your second photo is an Early Marsh orchid (probably ssp coccinea).

Rich M

[Jonny721]

Originally Posted by rmielcarek

Your second photo is an Early Marsh orchid (probably ssp coccinea).

Rich M

Thanks Rich, in that case I'm guessing this is as well then?

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by Jonny721

Thanks Rich, in that case I'm guessing this is as well then?

Attachment 395432

That looks more like subsp. incarnata being a paler 'flesh' pink.

Mike.

[Jonny721]

Interesting Mike, was wondering why there were 2 distinct colours in the patch we found

[rmielcarek]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Second site had a putative hybrid Broad-leaved x Green-flowered helleborine in 2010, which was eaten off before it could flower in 2011. Where there were c70 GFH two years ago, this year there were none - just a single Broad-leaved. More evidence of a poor Epipactis year.

That reminds me of a Helleborine that I photographed six years ago and identified as Green-flowered but it's bugged me ever since. It was at a site where there are Broad-leaved and a few Green-flowered of the type where the buds only open slightly or not at all.

I've got this thing, which was growing in a storm gutter by the side of a busy road, down as a pendula GFH but I often look at it and have my doubts.

Anyone any views?

Rich M

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by rmielcarek

That reminds me of a Helleborine that I photographed six years ago and identified as Green-flowered but it's bugged me ever since. It was at a site where there are Broad-leaved and a few Green-flowered of the type where the buds only open slightly or not at all.

I've got this thing, which was growing in a storm gutter by the side of a busy road, down as a pendula GFH but I often look at it and have my doubts.

Anyone any views?

Rich M

The close together spirally ranked leaves up the length of the stem and open flowers certainly look good for helleborine influence in my mind.

Mike.

[heakl]

Originally Posted by rmielcarek

That reminds me of a Helleborine that I photographed six years ago and identified as Green-flowered but it's bugged me ever since. It was at a site where there are Broad-leaved and a few Green-flowered of the type where the buds only open slightly or not at all.

I've got this thing, which was growing in a storm gutter by the side of a busy road, down as a pendula GFH but I often look at it and have my doubts.

Anyone any views?

Rich M

Knowing where it was taken would perhaps help, if its Cotswolds or further south I'd take a stab at viridiflora.

I'm north of Liverpool at the moment and the green-flowered here are a little more like your photo than the southern ones.

Some of the dune helleborine here are still good but many are past it, the early marsh have nearly had it,just the odd one still fresh. Marsh helleborine by the thousand.

Alan

[rmielcarek]

Originally Posted by heakl

Knowing where it was taken would perhaps help, if its Cotswolds or further south I'd take a stab at viridiflora.

Alan

It's in either north Hants or Berks, I'm not sure which.

I've only seen BLH viridiflora a couple of times and the whole plant seemed to be a uniform green, not the contrasting yellowish sepals/petals on this plant.

I've seen GFH pendula in the Cotswolds and in Cumbria but the flowers always seem to hang down (pendulous) close to the stem whereas in this plant they seem to stick out from the stem.

Whenever I look at it I get features that suggest BLH and others that suggest GFH.

Rich