[birdingnige]

The attached Gull was on the beach between Skegness and Gibraltar Point yesterday aft and evening (300712). It shows characteristics of both Med and Common Gull but literature on this seems to be lacking. The info I have found always refers to them having the bill and legs of Med unlike the bill and legs of Common on this individual.

Anybody had any experience of such birds?

Comments most welcome

Regards

Nige

[LowellMills]

If it didn't have black wingtips I'd be suggesting that it's a Med Gull with a lower carotenoids level than average which would render the legs and bill orange.

[nickderry]

I suppose common x med is the only logical solution to this.

[draycotebirding]

There was a bird at Boddington Reservoir Northants 2001, then a different individual at Draycote Reservoir Warwickshire 2002 and a bird in Lincs also a different bird in 2002.
See att PDF
Regards

John

[tconzemi]

I hate Gulls
but why not a second calendar year Med Gull???
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/sho...p?photo=228638

[Silverwolf]

If a med and a common were to hybridize I wouldn't expect it to look as perfect as this too be honest. If you make the bill and legs red then it is perfectly fine for med, there are no posture or anatomy oddities etc. to my eyes.

[Archie Opteryx]

Would like to see more pics, especially of the wingtips.

[Cristian Mihai]

In my humble opinion, this coudn't be a pure Med Gull...
A hybrid is the only option.

[smiths]

Originally Posted by tconzemi

I hate Gulls
but why not a second calendar year Med Gull???
http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/sho...p?photo=228638

Second cy is impossible because the outer primaries are clearly no longer juvenile. It has to be at least a 3rd cy.

In a 3cy Med Gull with such a developed hood, I would certainly not expect to see such a greenish colour on legs and bill. Actually, there is not a single plumage of Med Gull in which they show such greenish legs; normally, the legs are rather dark. Leg colour, bill colour and bill pattern of this bird are suspiciously similar to Common Gull!

The primary pattern is wrong for any type of Med Gull. If you look at the underside of the wingtip (i.e. the underside of P10), you can see a large white mirror combined with an all-black inner web - just as in Common Gull. Some 2nd-cycle Med Gulls have a rather large amount of black on the outer primaries, but the inner webs of these feathers are largely white, so in other words, if you look at the underside of the wingtip of a 3cy Med Gull, you will notice that it is largely pale, not black. See http://gull-research.org/melanos/med03cy.html.

In addition, there is also too much contrast between the grey upperparts and white underparts (Med Gull always has very pale upperparts), and too much contrast between the grey tongue and white tongue-tip of the exposed P7.

This has to be one of the clearest examples of a hybrid Common x Med Gull, a rare combination!

[tconzemi]

Originally Posted by smiths

Second cy is impossible because the outer primaries are clearly no longer juvenile. It has to be at least a 3rd cy.

In a 3cy Med Gull with such a developed hood, I would certainly not expect to see such a greenish colour on legs and bill. Actually, there is not a single plumage of Med Gull in which they show such greenish legs; normally, the legs are rather dark. Leg colour, bill colour and bill pattern of this bird are suspiciously similar to Common Gull!

The primary pattern is wrong for any type of Med Gull. If you look at the underside of the wingtip (i.e. the underside of P10), you can see a large white mirror combined with an all-black inner web - just as in Common Gull. Some 2nd-cycle Med Gulls have a rather large amount of black on the outer primaries, but the inner webs of these feathers are largely white, so in other words, if you look at the underside of the wingtip of a 3cy Med Gull, you will notice that it is largely pale, not black. See http://gull-research.org/melanos/med03cy.html.

In addition, there is also too much contrast between the grey upperparts and white underparts (Med Gull always has very pale upperparts), and too much contrast between the grey tongue and white tongue-tip of the exposed P7.

This has to be one of the clearest examples of a hybrid Common x Med Gull, a rare combination!

Thanks for the details

[Steve Lister]

Originally Posted by smiths

Second cy is impossible because the outer primaries are clearly no longer juvenile. It has to be at least a 3rd cy.

In a 3cy Med Gull with such a developed hood, I would certainly not expect to see such a greenish colour on legs and bill. Actually, there is not a single plumage of Med Gull in which they show such greenish legs; normally, the legs are rather dark. Leg colour, bill colour and bill pattern of this bird are suspiciously similar to Common Gull!

The primary pattern is wrong for any type of Med Gull. If you look at the underside of the wingtip (i.e. the underside of P10), you can see a large white mirror combined with an all-black inner web - just as in Common Gull. Some 2nd-cycle Med Gulls have a rather large amount of black on the outer primaries, but the inner webs of these feathers are largely white, so in other words, if you look at the underside of the wingtip of a 3cy Med Gull, you will notice that it is largely pale, not black. See http://gull-research.org/melanos/med03cy.html.

In addition, there is also too much contrast between the grey upperparts and white underparts (Med Gull always has very pale upperparts), and too much contrast between the grey tongue and white tongue-tip of the exposed P7.

This has to be one of the clearest examples of a hybrid Common x Med Gull, a rare combination!

That all makes good sense to me. Another thing suggesting Common Gull is the fine bill.

Steve

[Seawatcheruk]

Hi - I actually found this Gull on Skegness beach and had an opportunity to watch it and take a few photos myself but nowhere near as good as birdingnige's.
Smiths analysis is substantially correct in that it is a 3CY and shows mainly Common Gull characteristics. The black hood is pure Med - birdingnige's photo does not show the full extent -but wing pattern is Common. It is in moult and has dropped P8 I think. P10 is obviously old with a large white tip and P9 has a mirror whilst P7 and P6 just have black tips. There is extensive black on the outer web of P10 and very well defined grey tongues extending along the inner webs of the outer prims. Also the bird has some slight, dark markings on 3 tail feathers. Bill and legs are more intermediate to my eyes whilst the grey areas of mantle, scaps and coverts are too dark for Med. I would love to have heard it call!
Makes you stop and rub your eyes when you find a bird like this!

[Silverwolf]

How rare would this be? They aren't even the same genus which makes things quite interesting.

[draycotebirding]

Originally Posted by Silverwolf

How rare would this be? They aren't even the same genus which makes things quite interesting.

See pdf in post 4

Regards

John

[Nightranger]

Just to put the cat among the pigeons - are we sure the head pattern is extensive enough to be a Med' gull or Med' gull hybrid? The bird has its head hunched and it appears to only have the facial pattern of a black-headed gull rather than the full hood of a Med' gull. Admittedly, the yellow legs and bill coupled with the very dark hood suggest this is not a straightforward ID problem but there are a lot of features that suggest this is a sub-adult black-headed gull.

[draycotebirding]

Originally Posted by Nightranger

Just to put the cat among the pigeons - are we sure the head pattern is extensive enough to be a Med' gull or Med' gull hybrid? The bird has its head hunched and it appears to only have the facial pattern of a black-headed gull rather than the full hood of a Med' gull. Admittedly, the yellow legs and bill coupled with the very dark hood suggest this is not a straightforward ID problem but there are a lot of features that suggest this is a sub-adult black-headed gull.

Surely the Black head rules out (pure) Black-headed Gull

Regards

John

[Nightranger]

Originally Posted by draycotebirding

Surely the Black head rules out (pure) Black-headed Gull

Regards

John

John, I do not have an answer for that but I Googled a lot of images and the head pattern coupled with the shape of the yellow beak/legs along with the black wing tips just says black-headed gull to me. I have learned some valuable lessons in the last year over atypical birds but at the end of the day - when everything else adds up - these birds can be something ordinary after all. I have alerted a friend of mine who likes his gulls but in the meantime I am happy to stick my head above the parapet and depart from what everyone else is saying.

[smiths]

In hybrids with Black-headed Gull, the white leading edge to the outer wing is still present or at least strongly indicated, but I see nothing of the sort here.

Hybrids of Black-headed x Common Gull are actually quite well documented, from Belgium, Spain, France, and Germany. In Belgium, an adult bird has been wintering at the same exact location every year since at least 1991, and this bird has been extensively photographed, both in winter and summer plumages.
See http://www.ridibundus.gull-research....ommonGull.html.
Note also the colour of the bare parts in this type of hybrid.