[idaho john]

I am looking for reviews and your experiences with using the following:

Clark - A Field Guide to the Raptors of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa

and

Chapman - The Hobby

The chances are good that I will never leave the continental US, but it does not keep me from being interested in Raptors (outside of the US/Canada) and in this case Buzzards (Buteo) and Falcons and in particular the Hobby, which reminds me (what little I have seen of it on video) of American Kestrels.

Any reviews of this or sharing of your experiences with these guides would be appreciated.

John

[John Cantelo]

Although flawed by some poor maps (e.g. Hobby not shown as breeding in the UK!), I prefer the second edition of the 'Collins Birds of Prey' by Benny Gensbol. The 170 odd pages on ID have better illustrations than Clark's book and the 230 pages of species accounts have a lot of info & good colour photos. You may have this book and I assume you have Dick Forsman's book which is the last word on BoP ID in Europe, but only illustrated by photos. Klaus Mallig Olsen has written a book which boasts some gorgeous artwork, but it's only available in Danish,

[idaho john]

thanks...

I am just now starting to build a library on raptors out of the states. There was some good info there. If you don't mind, please post some titles to go with the name you mentioned.

Forsman?

John

[John Cantelo]

'The Raptors of Europe & the Middle East' - Dick Forsman. Pub. T & A D Poyser.

I can't recall the name of the Danish title but can dig it out if you're interested. I'm sti holding out for an English version, but I suspect it won't come anytime soon,

[TwoDipsfromAmsterdam]

I guess this is the Danish book John referred to: http://www.jppolfr.dk/engelsk/pages/...-i-felten.aspx

David

[John Cantelo]

Originally Posted by TwoDipsfromAmsterdam

I guess this is the Danish book John referred to: http://www.jppolfr.dk/engelsk/pages/...-i-felten.aspx

David

Yes, that's the one! I much prefer artwork to photographs (even if the latter might, in this instance, be more useful) and Carl Christian Tofte's illustrations in this book are superb. I think his BoP paintings in this book are up there with Lars Jonsson's artwork. See an earlier thread I started, with photos of the book's content, on BF about this book at
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....hristian+Tofte

For more info on the Collins Birds of Prey book see a thread (also started by me) at
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....hristian+Tofte

[idaho john]

thank you so much for your suggestions. I enjoy the fact that there is always more to learn about these beautiful birds.

Any more suggestions by you and others about raptor guides for birds outside the continental US would be appreciated.

John

[John Cantelo]

Have you got a copy of 'Raptors of the World' by Ferguson-Lees et al (either the original 'handbook' version or the smaller 'field guide' edition?) See for the latter -

http://www.amazon.com/Raptors-World-...of+the+world#_

The classic 'Flight Identification of European Raptors' by Porter et al - arguably the book which kicked off the trend for family related field guides (Pub 1974) here in the UK is now available as a reprint. See -
http://www.nhbs.com/flight_identific...fno_13480.html

I guess it's a bit dated these days, but I love the clarity and simplicity of the Ian Willis's line drawings,

[njlarsen]

Take a look at this older thread: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....merican+raptor

There has also been talk about a specialty guide for Raptors in South America, I cannot find the link at the moment.

For simple ID of South American raptors, this should do: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....merican+raptor

Niels

[idaho john]

Thanks for the suggestion. I have spent quite a bit of time looking through (and using) stateside material on raptors here in the Western US, that I have overlooked material available on other continents. But my infatuation with the Hobby has got me interested in raptors on other landmasses. So after our conversation I have added to my bird watching list at Amazon the following:

Raptors of the World - Lee

Raptors of Europe and the Middle East - Forsman

Birds of Europe - Lars Svensson

A Field Guide to the Raptors of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa - Clark

As far as Collins' book on Birds of Prey - by Gensbol, I am holding off as the price in the states is...in a word, phenomenal and I don't mean that in a complimentary way. Maybe a previous edition is the better investment given that I may not get to anyplace where the information will be applied "in the field." Clark's book is not much better, but since I am familiar with his work I am going to attempt to at least review and compare with the others...provided I can find a copy that does not destroy disposable income.

Chapman's book "The Hobby," is going to have to wait as well as the price to the states is also...remarkable.

Nils - I have yet to get into the raptors of South America but it is coming up. One of my favorite western raptors goes on quite a journey to South America every year - Swainson's Hawk and I would like to find out where and what it is called in the area in which it winters.

Thank you for your suggestions. Please feel free to continue the conversation as I appreciate it and am learning more, which is the best part.

John

[MJB]

Originally Posted by idaho john

I have spent quite a bit of time looking through (and using) stateside material on raptors here in the Western US, that I have overlooked material available on other continents. But my infatuation with the Hobby has got me interested in raptors on other landmasses. So after our conversation I have added to my bird watching list at Amazon the following:

Raptors of the World - Lee
Raptors of Europe and the Middle East - Forsman
Birds of Europe - Lars Svensson
A Field Guide to the Raptors of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa - Clark

As far as Collins' book on Birds of Prey - by Gensbol, I am holding off as the price in the states is...in a word, phenomenal and I don't mean that in a complimentary way. Maybe a previous edition is the better investment given that I may not get to anyplace where the information will be applied "in the field." Clark's book is not much better, but since I am familiar with his work I am going to attempt to at least review and compare with the others...provided I can find a copy that does not destroy disposable income.

Chapman's book "The Hobby," is going to have to wait as well as the price to the states is also...remarkable.

Thank you for your suggestions. Please feel free to continue the conversation as I appreciate it and am learning more, which is the best part.
John

John,
Here's an out-of-print book that you might get second-hand.

Leslie H Brown: African Birds of Prey ISBN 000211044X (0-00-211044-X) Hardcover, Collins

If you want books to look good on your shelf, then this will cost you, but if you want it for the information, then specify that you're happy with a battered copy! The same goes for Benni Gensbol's book. I've found several bird books on the web that I needed for their content, and not their looks. One from Paris was 30 euros (including postage) where the pristine copies in the US were going for $200+ plus postage or in UK £220 plus postage!

Dealers sometimes have a scruffy copy as well as the one they're advertising...
MJB

[idaho john]

I have struggled with being ok with a "scruffy" copy versus new. Yet I pretty much use my books or don't have them very long. As I get older if I am not using a text much, away it goes to a yard sale or as a gift to friends. I moved once from Idaho to Portland, Oregon (never again) and carried over 300 books with me. I also had a cot, some blankets, a towel, a hairbrush and a chair and a kettle, dish, cup, fork and knife.

My dad made the comment at the time, that I was severely unbalanced.

So your suggestion is appreciated and older or used copies it will be, if they are available.

John

[MJB]

Originally Posted by idaho john

I have struggled with being ok with a "scruffy" copy versus new. Yet I pretty much use my books or don't have them very long. As I get older if I am not using a text much, away it goes to a yard sale or as a gift to friends. I moved once from Idaho to Portland, Oregon (never again) and carried over 300 books with me. I also had a cot, some blankets, a towel, a hairbrush and a chair and a kettle, dish, cup, fork and knife.
My dad made the comment at the time, that I was severely unbalanced.
So your suggestion is appreciated and older or used copies it will be, if they are available. John

John,
Your dad was right - you didn't have enough books to be considered balanced!

My good lady and I have well over 1000 books in our house she says I'm perfectly balanced, because I have a chip on both shoulders...
MJB

[idaho john]

MJB: just checking in. I got a copy of Raptors of the World (Ferguson-Lees, Christie) from the Princeton Field Guide series. I am thoroughly enjoying it and in the process realized that there is an earlier edition that has much more content. So the struggle is (and considering my history with accumulating more books than I need) whether to save up and get a 2nd hand copy of that or just check it out from my city library.

Regardless, I do appreciate your suggestions (and other posters) and am enjoying the wide variety of raptors featured in the guide. Truly the way species adapt to their environment or exploit their habitat is fascinating.

Thanks again.

John

[MJB]

Originally Posted by idaho john

MJB: just checking in. I got a copy of Raptors of the World (Ferguson-Lees, Christie) from the Princeton Field Guide series. I am thoroughly enjoying it and in the process realized that there is an earlier edition that has much more content. So the struggle is (and considering my history with accumulating more books than I need) whether to save up and get a 2nd hand copy of that or just check it out from my city library.
Regardless, I do appreciate your suggestions (and other posters) and am enjoying the wide variety of raptors featured in the guide. Truly the way species adapt to their environment or exploit their habitat is fascinating. Thanks again. John

John,
Glad you've got so much out of FL & C (Field Guide) - the Handbook is really big and so you'll have to renew your loan from the library several times! That information in the Handbook is invaluable (while acknowledging that inevitably in some cases it has been superseded by subsequent work, some support towards potential splits and some towards potential lumps) - rather expected in that the Handbook's original intended publication date was (if memory serves) in the late 1980s!

The Field Guide has reworked plates and updated maps.

For a typical second hand copy, see http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...orld&x=51&y=19, price $15.28 p&p US $3.99

If that doesn't come up, just get on to Abe Books website and type in 'James Ferguson-Lees' and 'Raptors of the World'
Yours aye,
MJB

[Richard Klim]

Originally Posted by MJB

For a typical second hand copy, see http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...orld&x=51&y=19, price $15.28 p&p US $3.99

For a 992-page hardback in "very good" condition, that's a real bargain!

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by idaho john

......Falcons and in particular the Hobby, which reminds me (what little I have seen of it on video) of American Kestrels.

.....John

John,

I have only now come across this thread, after a rather extensive trip through some parts of northern North America. I mention this to say I'm quite familiar with raptors of both continents. And I'd like to add a slight correction to your impression of the Hobby. The Hobby is more like a small Peregrine in the way it lives, kind of between the Peregrine and the Merlin. There are true equivalents to the American Kestrel in Europe, mainly the European (Common) Kestrel, Falco tinnunculus, but also the slightly smaller more mediterranean Lesser Kestrel (Falco naumanni). On my recent visit, it has really struck me again just how similar the American and the Common Kestrel actually are in their way of living.

I have my own falcon addictions, so to speak. These are Eleonora's Falcon and the Sooty Falcon (see my avatar). But any raptor has a special spot in my preference list!

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by TwoDipsfromAmsterdam

I guess this is the Danish book John referred to: http://www.jppolfr.dk/engelsk/pages/...-i-felten.aspx

David

I can't access this one.

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by idaho john

....As far as Collins' book on Birds of Prey - by Gensbol, I am holding off as the price in the states is...in a word, phenomenal and I don't mean that in a complimentary way. Maybe a previous edition is the better investment given that I may not get to anyplace where the information will be applied "in the field." .......
John

John, I tried to find a source for this book. The English and the German edition are out of print. That's why prices tend to go up. At any rate, do not go for an earlier edition of the English version. You might try the one source for a recent edition that I found: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...=9780007248148

You'll need to try to find out what the shipping rate would be to the US, as the shipping rate shown might be the one for shipping to Switzerland. At least, that's what happens when I open the link.

[njlarsen]

http://www.naturbutikken.dk/pi/Rovfu..._1968_164.aspx for the one you could not access.

Niels

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by njlarsen

http://www.naturbutikken.dk/pi/Rovfu..._1968_164.aspx for the one you could not access.

Niels

Great, thanks Niels. I tried to order from that site, but I got stuck. For one, my inferring what might be meant got to a limit. But most of all, it seems they only accept Danish credit cards.
The price looks pretty decent for the quality of the book. and even more so when considering the probably very limited market.

Thus, I'd still be interested to get a link that works for me to actually be able to order the book.

By the way, would this really be the same book? They mention a LIST price that is only DKK 100 instead of 199:
http://www.saxo.com/dk/rovfugle-i-fe..._9788756778992

[njlarsen]

It does look to be the same book on Saxo. I have not lived in Denmark for 10 years, so I checked a little: the first review site (in Danish) had mostly good to say, and when there were complaints they centered on slower than expected delivery and slower than expected answers to email, but there was nothing about fraud in the reviews I read.

The site I linked to is part of the Danish birdlife partner, and for that reason, it is the first place in Denmark I think of for nature related things. The do communicate in English with emails, but I do not know about their credit card policy.

Niels

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by njlarsen

It does look to be the same book on Saxo. I have not lived in Denmark for 10 years, so I checked a little: the first review site (in Danish) had mostly good to say, and when there were complaints they centered on slower than expected delivery and slower than expected answers to email, but there was nothing about fraud in the reviews I read.

The site I linked to is part of the Danish birdlife partner, and for that reason, it is the first place in Denmark I think of for nature related things. The do communicate in English with emails, but I do not know about their credit card policy.

Niels

Thanks Niels, very helpful indeed. Saxo seems to ship to most countries. If I order from them, postage will be close to three times the book price (they seem to deduct VAT). Thus reminiscent of Edward's water experience mentioned in another thread to the same book. But at around 33US$ total, this is still very reasonable, if not downright cheap.

[idaho john]

Swissboy - thanks for your replies on the thread. I doubt that I will get outside of the states in my lifetime so I valued your reflection on the Hobby and American Kestrel.

I have an fascination with the Hobby (Falco subbuteo) as I do for two other falcon specie - the American Kestrel (Falco sparverius) and the Prairie Falcon (Falco mexicanus) - a desert specialist.

It has been interesting for me to see that most bird guides for North America have so little information about Prairie Falcons. The latest Stokes guide really surprised me when they had a good paragraph of valuable information and included several photos as well. Prairie Falcons usually end up with a perched pose and maybe a ventral view in most guides. On the other hand, it is interesting that Sibley's guides do not once mention the Hobby as a visitor - even though we have had the privilege on a couple of occasions.

The best that I can hope for with the Hobby is YouTube clips and someday get a copy of Chapman's book.

But I will only be able to afford one...after I win the lottery, pay my debts, solve world hunger, preserve millions of acres (hectares?) of bird habitat, impose my world view on unsuspecting souls, secure a bespoke Holland and Holland .16 gauge side by side with straight stock made of pristine, well figured English Walnut - that I will never shoot because I am afraid I will mar the wood and finish and have a Zeiss designed, custom super dooper optic system that will ensure I am able to identify any bird I see - with absolutely no room for disagreement from any other birder (twitcher)...period.

It appears that I may have forgotten to take my medication!

John

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by idaho john

....I have an fascination with the Hobby (Falco subbuteo) as I do for two other falcon specie - the American Kestrel (Falco sparverius) and the Prairie Falcon (Falco mexicanus) - a desert specialist.

.......John

John, I share your fascination with the Prairie Falcon as well. I wish we'd have seen one on our recent trip. But I recall observations from earlier years, including a few from eastern Washington where I did fieldwork for my studies from 1969 to 1972. That's a long long time ago, of course.