[slatts]

Last sunday to Winnall Moors to see green flowered helleborine. About a dozen plants still in tight bud. Then down to another site near the Test Way, not a sign. The river test looks like it's flooded here and taken the plants with it. A pity, there were a few nice little plants there right beside the river. Rownhams services next, broad leaf helleborine about half in flower now. Many plants in this not fantastically attractive site and obviously a popular place for dog relief! Be careful! To a site in Funtley next which I had not been to in a while to see if I could remember where the violet helleborines were. I could not believe that I found them so quickly, about 10 spikes in all, still in tight bud. According to my notes these and the green flowered were in good flower this time four years ago. It will be more than a week till a flower shows, but some warm weather this week should advance them.

[rogpow]

Originally Posted by slatts

Then down to another site near the Test Way, not a sign. The river test looks like it's flooded here and taken the plants with it. A pity, there were a few nice little plants there right beside the river.

I went to the Test Way on Monday and found 4 green-flowered helleborines. Mostly in bud, but the largest had 3 flowers open.

Rog

[rmielcarek]

Originally Posted by heakl

Although I've read that var. degenera can have open flowers I have yet to see one, with the ones I have seen its more a case of trying to judge the shape of the hypochile looking between the lateral sepals from the underside the flower. In the photo that Rich posted I get the impression there is a well formed and quite deep hypochile, in Simons second photo there hardly seems to be one, although I've no doubt you have been looking at the same colony. If either of you have a side on view of the lip it would be very nice to see.

Alan

I'm attaching pictures of a few of the other flowers from the same Bristol plant. They all show a separate hypochile, but it is more obvious and deeper in some than in others.

Alan, have you got any pics of the woodland phyllanthes from your recent trip to Kenfig? I've just seen a pic of a plant from there in an old BSBI News labelled vectensis, and from what I can see of the flowers they look quite similar.

[heakl]

Originally Posted by rmielcarek

I'm attaching pictures of a few of the other flowers from the same Bristol plant. They all show a separate hypochile, but it is more obvious and deeper in some than in others.

Alan, have you got any pics of the woodland phyllanthes from your recent trip to Kenfig? I've just seen a pic of a plant from there in an old BSBI News labelled vectensis, and from what I can see of the flowers they look quite similar.

A few Green-flowered from Kenfig last weekend:-
First one is the open dune variation cambrensis, some will argue that its simply green-flowered helleborine adapting to an un-shaded habitat, I rather thing that view is spot on.

The other two, pendula and vectensis, were growing in the woodland areas.

Going back to your Bristol plant, looking at both your photos and the ones Simon posted its difficult to make a judgement but on balance I'm leaning away from degenera (hypochile too deeply formed on at least some flowers) towards pendula/vectensis. Perhaps worth saying that one very knowledgeable orchideer advised me to lump these two together, the more plants I see the more I'm inclined to follow that advice.

Alan

[heakl]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

I visited a few leptochila sites today; 1 in Wales and 2 in Gloucestershire. The first site, despite being apparently full of budding leptochila a week and a half ago, had all been replaced by helleborine! One very dark reddish wine coloured one was nice to see. The Gloucestershire sites were more successful with one just opening at the first spot and several in full flower at the second. It was quite amazing to see the variation in flower form even between these very close colonies.

Mike.

Your first photo looks very interesting Mike, although there looks to be a well formed viscidim the pollinia are crumbling and self-pollinating! What have you found?

Alan

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by heakl

Your first photo looks very interesting Mike, although there looks to be a well formed viscidim the pollinia are crumbling and self-pollinating! What have you found?

Alan

Hi Alan

I'm not sure the pollinia is 'crumbling', it looks more like it's been pulled forward (on the top flower) by an unseen agent; probably by a smaller visiting insect. I thought it was interesting how the viscidium had already browned on the lower flower though, considering these are very freshly opened.

On phyllanthes - I must agree that I've always thought vectensis and pendula are pretty much the same thing. It seems to just come down to the size of the hypochile which surely varies between plants anyway. The distinction seems tenuous.

Mike.

[JCL]

Couple of updates from the weekend:
Ladle Hill, N Hants: 75 Burnt Orchid, many still broadly OK; 1 Frog Orchid
Mapledurwell Fen, Old Basing: Marsh Fragrant, 'Narrow-leaved Marsh', Southern Marsh - but Marsh Helleborines dessicated
Stoborough Heath, Dorset: 2 Bog Orchid

[heakl]

Originally Posted by rmielcarek

Alan, have you got any pics of the woodland phyllanthes from your recent trip to Kenfig? I've just seen a pic of a plant from there in an old BSBI News labelled vectensis, and from what I can see of the flowers they look quite similar.

Just sorting through my Kenfig photos and found another view of the vectensis

Alan

[heakl]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

Hi Alan

I'm not sure the pollinia is 'crumbling', it looks more like it's been pulled forward (on the top flower) by an unseen agent; probably by a smaller visiting insect. I thought it was interesting how the viscidium had already browned on the lower flower though, considering these are very freshly opened.

Mike.

Something unusual about that one Mike, if its not too far from home its worth closer inspection, and perhaps noting what else is in the area.

Alan

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by heakl

Something unusual about that one Mike, if its not too far from home its worth closer inspection, and perhaps noting what else is in the area.

Alan

Cardiff I'm afraid, although I suppose it's not as far for you as it is for me. I can give you details if you like? There should be leptochila there aswell and infact this plant was one that appeared to have all the credentials until it flowered!

Mike.

[heakl]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

Cardiff I'm afraid, although I suppose it's not as far for you as it is for me. I can give you details if you like? There should be leptochila there aswell and infact this plant was one that appeared to have all the credentials until it flowered!

Mike.

Thanks Mike, don't know when but if you email the info I'll certainly try and get down there next week. Perhaps also send it to RichM, I believe he might be going that direction.

Alan

[Ghostly Vision]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

Hi Alan

I'm not sure the pollinia is 'crumbling', it looks more like it's been pulled forward (on the top flower) by an unseen agent; probably by a smaller visiting insect. I thought it was interesting how the viscidium had already browned on the lower flower though, considering these are very freshly opened.

Mike.

Hi Mike/Alan

Mike's photo shows a standard E helleborine. What is unusual is that the anther cap has been moved slightly to one side (the left in this photo) and, as Mike says, the pollinia, still attached to the viscidium, brought forward slightly.

The pollen on Broad-leaved do not crumble with age, instead they dry out and shrivel back into the clinandirum. This year has been a very good year to witness this, as many appear not to have been visited by Wasps. This means the mechanism in older open flowers can be observed widely.

On Mike's plant, even if the pollen crumbled it would not fall onto the stigma.

What separates leptochila in this respect is that as well as crumbly pollinia, the anther is stalked, making it overhang the stigma. This means that when the pollen does separate and fall, it falls onto the stigma below. Mike's pic of the Gloucs lepto illustrates this well.

I have been to the Staffs site today and done some "forensic" study on three of the plants. The results are really quite interesting! when I have collated them and summarised, I will post a summary on here.

Regards

Sean

[heakl]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Hi Mike/Alan

Mike's photo shows a standard E helleborine. What is unusual is that the anther cap has been moved slightly to one side (the left in this photo) and, as Mike says, the pollinia, still attached to the viscidium, brought forward slightly.

The pollen on Broad-leaved do not crumble with age, instead they dry out and shrivel back into the clinandirum. This year has been a very good year to witness this, as many appear not to have been visited by Wasps. This means the mechanism in older open flowers can be observed widely.

On Mike's plant, even if the pollen crumbled it would not fall onto the stigma.

What separates leptochila in this respect is that as well as crumbly pollinia, the anther is stalked, making it overhang the stigma. This means that when the pollen does separate and fall, it falls onto the stigma below. Mike's pic of the Gloucs lepto illustrates this well.

I have been to the Staffs site today and done some "forensic" study on three of the plants. The results are really quite interesting! when I have collated them and summarised, I will post a summary on here.

Regards

Sean

Thanks Sean, I await with interest!

Mike, I'm very likely going past Cardiff again next week and it sounds like an interesting site anyway, would still like site info if you can let me have it.

Alan

[slatts]

Photograph copyright and internet theft.

Many of you are posting some really excellent photographs on this site. Now it's as easy as pie to drag any of these images on to one's desk top. Your images could then be used for all kinds of commercial purposes without you knowing. My personal opinion is to use an extremely small file size on these pages. Some of the file sizes are large enough for commercial use and I have dragged a few of your images off to see for myself. You could also watermark or sign the images, and at least embed metadata info into the images. You can always send larger files to those you are discussing the plants with.

Slatts

[rmielcarek]

Originally Posted by slatts

Photograph copyright and internet theft.

Many of you are posting some really excellent photographs on this site. Now it's as easy as pie to drag any of these images on to one's desk top. Your images could then be used for all kinds of commercial purposes without you knowing. My personal opinion is to use an extremely small file size on these pages. Some of the file sizes are large enough for commercial use and I have dragged a few of your images off to see for myself. You could also watermark or sign the images, and at least embed metadata info into the images. You can always send larger files to those you are discussing the plants with.

Slatts

I'm not a professional photographer (you may well have noticed) so it doesn't worry me if people want to use my images.

Also the site limits the maximum image size you can upload to under 300Kb so I am only posting low resolution copies which I wouldn't have thought are much use commercially.

Rich M

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi all

Had an update this week on Irish Ladies Tresses....

At Lough Beg (where in 2006 there were over 100, yet in 2007 only two), there were three plants in flower last weekend.
Near the Giant's Causeway, a single plant in flower. This is a much smaller population, with a maximum of nine recorded in recent years.
The former Devon site has been checked this year with no success, although it is apprently looking suitable still. Given the small size of this population, and the heavy reliance on exact ecological conditions for flowering to occur, it is my belief that this site should continue to be checked annually, as there is a distinct possibility that a surprise may be in store!

Regards

Sean

[heakl]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Hi all

Had an update this week on Irish Ladies Tresses....

The former Devon site has been checked this year with no success, although it is apprently looking suitable still. Given the small size of this population, and the heavy reliance on exact ecological conditions for flowering to occur, it is my belief that this site should continue to be checked annually, as there is a distinct possibility that a surprise may be in store!

Regards

Sean

Hi Sean,
Having checked a few sites last week I could say the same about Summer Lady's-tresses, except that the possibility of a surprise there is extremely remote.

I checked the Dartmoor site for Irish Lady's-tresses last year but only had a rough idea of where to look, its an area we like and visit a few times most year, if you're able (or indeed anybody else) to PM me an accurate grid ref I'd be very pleased.

Thanks
Alan

[rmielcarek]

Visited the south Wales coastal dunes yesterday; the var neerlandica just coming into flower.

We saw both sorts ie the normal sized plants, including one with a very dense inflorescence, and also the smaller sized, tiny, plants (which seem to be larger this year).

Rich M

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi Rich

Did you notice how prevalent the pollination was in these populations?

Sean

[davidearlgray]

Hi all, here is a few photos of the Broad-leaved Helleborines in NW Leics I took last weekend.
As you can see an interesting range of plants!

Cheers,
Dave.

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by davidearlgray

Hi all, here is a few photos of the Broad-leaved Helleborines in NW Leics I took last weekend.
As you can see an interesting range of plants!

Cheers,
Dave.

First looks the spit of leptochila! Something about the conditions this year seems to be curtailing the attempts of some plants to tuck their lips under. Lovely viridflora aswell.

Mike.

[Ghostly Vision]

Originally Posted by davidearlgray

Hi all, here is a few photos of the Broad-leaved Helleborines in NW Leics I took last weekend.
As you can see an interesting range of plants!

Cheers,
Dave.

Hi Dave

Do you have any more photo's of the first one that you could email me please?

The lip shape is aberrant, regardless of whether it is tucked under. If you look at the other plants they show the clasic notch in the end of many helleborine, and the width:length ratio is normal. On the first one the lip is about 1.5x as long as it is wide! This is the fourth population where I've seen it this year - amazing!

Sean

[the young hunter]

Just got back from a (relatively) local site for purpurata and helleborine - only 2 of the former (in bud) and a few scratty plants of the latter where a couple of years ago plants were very large and robust. However, the pollinia had been removed on virtually all plants so maybe the wasps are a bit more abundant/active here?

Mike.

[rmielcarek]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Hi Rich

Did you notice how prevalent the pollination was in these populations?

Sean

Not at the time Sean but looking back at my photos everyone where I can see the pollinia are still present.

Found the attached; I'll leave it to you to explain what is happening - the pollinia just seem to be hanging there.

Rich M

[rmielcarek]

Cracking day Helleborining in the Cotswolds (thanks to Heather and Alan).

At one site we found a Broad-leaved with a fasciated stem (amazing brute) and another with a striped lower leaf.

Will post some more pics when I get round to sorting them out.

Rich M