[deboo]

Paul and Ken - we should go a birding :-)

[username]

Perhaps the 'reception committee' should have worn balaclavas....that would have put the wind up the guy and created mud like stains on his pants....

ps...hope you enjoyed your liquid lunch Jane...[i do love soup]...

http://username-beast.blogspot.co.uk/

[Farnboro John]

Originally Posted by Fozzybear

I remember a couple of years ago standing on the beach at the Naze in Essex and loads of Turnstones, Sanderlings and a Purple Sandpiper came along the tideline and were running around me. I was amazed just how close they came, especially the Turnstones.

I once spent half an hour in the seeded part of Salthouse car park with Turnstones walking over my legs while the Snow Buntings and Lapland Buntings grovelled at the end of my lens.

But I was there first, having walked in while they were at the far end of the strand. They came to me.

John

[Paul Chapman]

The black-headed gulls seem to be behaving perfectly normally behind him. The oystercatchers seem to be lined up normally. Did he flush anything?

There is a difference between being close to birds and flushing them.

Last week I sat myself down and waited for the tide to come in for birds to come closer to me but I do not always have that luxury and to cover the area properly I routinely disturb birds on my local patch. It is an inevitable consequence of watching it because of the particular layout. Does that mean that I should stop watching it?

It is otherwise disturbed by cyclists, fishermen, dog-walkers etc in any event.

All the best

[Xenospiza]

Originally Posted by Farnboro John

I once spent half an hour in the seeded part of Salthouse car park with Turnstones walking over my legs while the Snow Buntings and Lapland Buntings grovelled at the end of my lens.

But I was there first, having walked in while they were at the far end of the strand. They came to me.

You had a close shave: http://dustybins.blogspot.de/2010/01...eople-too.html

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

You had a close shave: http://dustybins.blogspot.de/2010/01...eople-too.html

Sometimes they do really bizarre stuff:
http://www.drmartinwilliams.com/not-...-i.html?page=3

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by Paul Chapman

Did he flush anything?


It is otherwise disturbed by cyclists, fishermen, dog-walkers etc in any event.

About 2000 Calidris, assorted Curlew, Whimbrel and Godwits and all the Terns. Who knows if there was a Skimmer or a Willet with them.

There is an ongoing high tide wardening project to educate beach users to keep away from the roosts when the tide is in. Seeing a "birder" way out in the roost makes it quite hard to explain to people who don't know better.

[coal tit]

hi paul, that must have been some treat to get 3 species of waders around you i was pleased to get sanderling running across in front of me following the tide in at titchwell the only turnstones i got were ones flying by just off the waters edge, i had great views
through my spotting scope of them i even gave them some of my sandwich one day
which they made short work of has they gobbled it down, to get such good views put me on a high and made a thrilling experience to witness at the time never to forget.

[Scott Reid]

(This message was aimed at the Northwest birding facebook page which Jane Turner posted a similar comment on)

Dear all,

I would like anyone who has been following the post made by Jane Turner earlier today to read this message.

I am the so called ‘pillock’ who was on Hoylake beach this morning and I am frankly disgusted, furious and upset at the comments made by Jane Turner and a number of individuals that have commented on her post.

I would like to first of all begin by saying that I am currently studying a wildlife conservation degree, have been birding since the age of 7, photographing wildlife for the past 2 years and have done a great deal of work with wildlife charities in the UK and abroad, as well as a lot of voluntary work with the Wirral Warden team. I have the upmost respect for all wildlife, especially that of the Dee Estuary and Wirral where I have done the majority of my bird watching over recent years.

A number of the allegations made against me in the comments on facebook are either inaccurate or completely untrue.

To clarify a few points from the comments left on the post:

Alan Hitchmough – Today was the first time I have photographed the waders at Hoylake and, in addition, my actions have never been questioned in the past nor have I ever been asked to move on from photographing wildlife.

Jane Turner (13th comment down) – At NO point did I walk into the bird roost(I will explain my exact actions whilst on the beach later in this message), at NO point did anybody approach me or speak to me in the whole time that I was on Hoylake beach and I most certainly did NOT ‘march’ out into the roost and flush the birds. All I can gather from this statement by Jane Turner is that the photographs were taken of me and then another individual who was acting irresponsibly was questioned and our identities were mistaken OR that Jane Turner has, for one reason or another, has lied about the events that took place.

I am also deeply upset by some of the other offensive comments made by others on the facebook page and I am disgusted by the attitudes of some individuals who did not hesitate to criticise and name call without knowing the identity of the person in the photo and without being given an accurate account of events.


Whenever photographing and filming wildlife, which I intend to turn into a career in later life, I always ensure that, without fail, the welfare of the animal comes first and that I do all I can to limit any disruption to the animal’s natural behaviour. Whilst on Hoylake beach this morning, on only three occasions were a group of birds disturbed due to my presence. The first of these were a small mixed group of gulls, not too far from the promenade (and NOT in the main flock of roosting birds far out at the water’s edge), that happened to be feeding/roosting across the area of which I was walking. I watched them for a while then as I passed, the relocated 20 or so meters away and settled again. The second of these was a group of c.30 dunlin that flew 20 meters or so to my left as I approached the area of beach where I lay in the sand. Once I had settled these SAME birds willingly walked back to their original position and commenced feeding. The third occasion was roughly an hour later when I relocated to dryer sand 10 meters in front of me and again caused a small flock of dunlin and ringed plover to fly several yards down the beach but again they returned after a couple of minutes to feed in front of me. Dunlin, ringed plover and sanderling were the only birds that I was attempting to photograph on the beach and at no point did I approach or disturb the larger numbers of gulls, terns, oystercatchers and cormorants that were roosting on the tideline. However, these birds were disturbed several times whilst I was there by the presence of charging dogs, which also tor past me on numerous occasions, flushing the waders that were happily feeding 15ft in front of me! I have spent many hours watching the waders at Hoylake over the years and, other than the disturbance by the dogs, there was no other unusual movements of the birds due to my presence. If anyone would like to see any un-cropped photos from today in order to see how close the birds came at their own will and that they were still feeding and displaying completely normal behaviour, I would be happy to send them some images.

Furthermore, as well as taking the birds welfare into consideration, I positioned myself a good distance down the beach from any birdwatchers that were already there before I arrived as not to disturb their mornings birding and had no complaints from a group of birders that I spoke to on my way back to my car after the tide.

I would also like to stress that my technique for photographing waders actually originated from an article in ‘Bird Watching’ magazine by a wildlife photographer who practiced the same method of full black attire, balaclava and a bean bag resting on an oven tray! His article on ‘how to photograph waders’, along with some of his awesome photos were published by the magazine and I was merely testing out his technique on a beach and group of birds that I love dearly. NOTE – the balaclava was to disguise the shape of my face from the birds to put them more at ease and NOT to hide my identity as someone inaccurately stated!

Also, Jane Turner, you have no right to post photographs of me on the internet, especially ones with me labelled as a ‘pillock’. I think you have shown complete disrespect and I request that you take the photos down immediately and copy the link for this message to your post on bird forum to clarify this whole situation. If you had a problem with my actions at Hoylake, you should have spoken to me at the time (and got the right person) and I would have been happy to explain my actions and apologise if I had caused you any concern. Frankly, I think the way you have publicised your photographs and opinions is disgusting. Inaccurate allegations and name calling such as this could prove to be quite damaging to someone who is pursuing a career in wildlife conservation and documentation and I am devastated that you have portrayed my actions in such a negative way to people who I respect and associate with! It would have been easy for me to keep quiet in this situation but I have NO reason to be ashamed of my behaviour and I could not condemn the way that you publically expressed your concerns. If the photographs and disrespectful comments are not removed from birdforum and facebook in the next 24 hours I will contact the administrators of both pages and put in a complaint.

I have a lot of good friends and acquaintances from birding around the Northwest and I hope that they will know me well enough to know that I have been 100% truthful in everything that I have said in this response and know the love and respect that I have and show for all wildlife.

If anybody who reads this message still has any concerns or issues with myself or my methods of photography - or wishes to apologise for a number of unsavoury comments that were made - please feel free to contact me by email:

*Scottreid.wild@yahoo.com*

Thank you

Scott Reid

[birdboybowley]

Welcome to BF Scott

[Stephen Dunstan]

Originally Posted by birdboybowley

Welcome to BF Scott

Very good Adam.

It might have been better if somebody knows they are innocent and they are wearing a balaclava (so unidentifiable) to just let it quietly drop, however difficult it might be. At the moment this is getting top billing on here and the Facebook group because of the currency of postings.

Stephen

[Jane Turner]

Thanks for coming on and explaining yourself Scott. Can you not see that a birder disturbing the waders (three times by your own admission) undermines the efforts of the voluntary wardens to reduce high tide disturbances. You displaced the waders from their usual roosting area. No one walked out to you since that would have created further disturbance.

[chowchilla]

I suspect Scott (and I may be wrong) that you feel righteously angry due to the fact that you have been exposed in the manner in which you have. I would be angry too in your position. I would similarly be angry if unpleasant comments had been posted about me here or on FB.

I would then calm down and quietly admit to myself that irrespective of how all this transpired, maybe, just maybe Jane and others have a point.

I see a picture of you lying out on the mud at a wader roost. I for one would never do this because of the initial disturbance to the birds. The birds may have settled down to feed around you, but if your comments about the dogs is accurate, it would seem that this is an area subject to frequent disturbance, so why add to the problem? If you are studying wildlife then you should know that sometimes it is that extra degree of disturbance that can make all the difference to a species survival. The effect may not be immediately noticeable, but the longer term trend may be inexorably downwards.

That you have not been challenged before is surely irrelevant; it doesn't justify your actions. Also, any 'tried and trusted' method can and should be challenged, otherwise debate on the subject is stifled. That is what freedom of speech is about surely?

So I'm afraid whether you like it or not, I (and others) will never ever see what you are doing here as right, however strongly you feel to the contrary.

[stonechat1]

I didn´t see the photos which are showing you, Scott. Can just make a picture for myself of the descriptions which you and Jane are providing.
This is my "summary":
1. I appreciate the efforts of everyone for the welfare of birds and the nature.
2. I can´t excuse a trible disturbance of birds from someone who claims that he "have the upmost respect for all wildlife".
3. As allready mentioned I wasn´t able to see the photos but I´m quite sure that no one was able to identify you. Assumed on the wear of the balaclava, resting (laying?) on your belly, and the camera in front of your face. Sure there was a greater distance from Jane to your positions too.
YOU don´t have any right to force a removing of pictures of this kind. Keep in mind that Jane also didn´t mention your name. So this person on the beach/strand can be anyone. Just calling it "pillock" or however doesn´t harm your rights. It harms your personality only when Jane is naming the photos e.g. " the pillock Scott Reid flashes waders" or when you are clearly to ID on the photos.
Bear this in mind for your future.

[Farnboro John]

I see that Scott mentions the length of his experience. Perhaps he should, before making that an issue, have checked on that of his critics.... if he is so resistant to criticism and advice at this stage of his career then I expect in a few years time he will know far too much to let anyone but himself moderate his behaviour.

Personally, while accepting that he shouldn't have been in the roost area, I understand his actions. However, I think he could have done better within the envelope of his own intentions and I offer these thoughts so he can make use of them somewhere appropriate (i.e. not in a wardened high tide roost):

1. After reconnaissance to identify the best spot, he should have been in position before any birds arrived at the roost so he didn't disturb any by getting into position.

2. Having selected his spot he should have stayed in it and not moved during the roost period. If he got it wrong, he should have waited for his next opportunity and not disturbed the roosting birds.When welfare of the birds is the name of the game, patience is the rule of the game.

3. Even if the balaclava method works, a hide is better as it allows those small movements that birds pick up on, and if he can afford a decent camera then £60 for a bag hide ought not to break the bank.

Finally, someone with as little experience as he has should not be so pompous.

John

[Jane Turner]

Here is the spot Scott was occupying on today's tide.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-w...0/DSCF5630.JPG

There was a lot more general traffic on the beach, including horses. However the only time the roost was disturbed was when a Peregrine went through them (twice). On both occasions the birds quickly settled in their preferred area. They were still there when the tide went out - though did eventually move when the Lifeboat went through them.


For comparison here is yesterday's roost.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Y...0/DSCF5591.JPG

2000 more waders & 500 more Terns were able to sit out the tide today

[chris butterworth]

To pick up on one of Scotts points, that of working with tbe "Wirral Wardens'. Does he mean the Ranger Service or the Dee Estuary Voluntary Wardens? If it's the former then he would know the coastal rangers are always 100% opposed to any disturbance of the internationally important numbers of birds that winter on the Wirral. If it's the DEVW - I was one of the first vols and helped set up the scheme, the first such scheme in the world and have for over 25 years wardened the roosts to prevent disturbance. You were deliberate in your disturbance just so you could get a better photo. Man up and admit it.

Chris

[KenM]

Originally Posted by northernloon

Your head might just be cold Dave, speaking as one of the follically-challenged

Sheer balderdash....

[Fozzybear]

Originally Posted by coal tit

hi paul, that must have been some treat to get 3 species of waders around you i was pleased to get sanderling running across in front of me following the tide in at titchwell the only turnstones i got were ones flying by just off the waters edge, i had great views
through my spotting scope of them i even gave them some of my sandwich one day
which they made short work of has they gobbled it down, to get such good views put me on a high and made a thrilling experience to witness at the time never to forget.

It was phenomenal, to this day it's the finest wader experience I've ever had! The smaller waders seem to have a much more relaxed attitude compared to the larger ones (as it seems to be with many bird families) but it still takes a lot of care to avoid disturbance and you have to be very aware of how the birds are reacting to you - I could see the larger distance the sanderlings were keeping from me compared to the turnstones and was very careful not to move in such a way as to spook them or to get too close to the tideline that they couldn't carry on feeding normally along it. I was really worried about disturbing them at first but the fact that they approached me and continued to feed and move back and forth in front of me in a relaxed way gave me the confidence to stay to take some photos but if they'd shown any signs of disturbance I would have backed off. I wouldn't have attempted to be on the beach if larger birds were there as I know how skittish they are.

I remember once exploring at Heybridge Basin and coming around a corner in a densely overgrown path that led to the water's edge without me realising it... right where hundreds of godwits were roosting! As soon as I realised I froze and then very, very carefully backed away while avoiding looking directly at the birds and only by a huge dollop of luck did I avoid setting the whole flock to flight (why there wasn't a warning sign there I don't know!). I almost fell down with relief when I backed around the corner without scaring up the birds! Later as I walked around the sea wall I saw the whole lot go up so I wonder if someone made the same mistake I did but wasn't able to get away without scaring the flock.

I do find myself wondering sometimes if people like Jane would see how I act around birds and call me a pillock, after all I do take photos of birds and so I don't stay at extreme telescope distance from all wildlife. It worries me sometimes but then again I hate to disturb birds at any time, including the pigeons on the street in town and the ducks on the park footpaths (if no-one is around I find myself apologising to birds for disturbing them! Yup, I lost my marbles years ago. ).

[Jane Turner]

Paul. If you walked out to the middle of a long established wader roost after it had formed and couldn't claim lack of local knowledge as a mitigation, I think the P word would be appropriate. The W word and the FW word were used on the phone to me.

You are right about the sensitivity of larger waders. It was the Knot, Godwits and Curlews that cleared out completely (as well as the terns)-though here it wasn't so much the disturbance as the bad example to others that was the issue.

Nice photos btw

[Fozzybear]

Well I certainly wouldn't wander into a large (or small for that matter!) roost of waders out in the open whether I had local knowledge or a lack of it. I don't go to wader places often and when I do I tend to be either at a distance on a sea wall or in a hide - my experience at the Naze was very out of the ordinary for me.

When we get gatherings of twitchy wildfowl on my patch in the winter I always try to keep at a distance and unlike the dog walkers I leave the path and walk across the meadow to increase the distance between me and the birds to try to reduce the chance of flushing them, but there are always going to be times when you don't see a bird that's hiding or you read a bird's body language wrong, get too close and it flies off.

Maybe that's just me though, perhaps other birders are able to drift through the countryside like a ghost, disturbing not a single bird or blade of grass...

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

Nice photos btw

Thanks - I use a relatively small SLR lens (70-300 zoom) because it seems to disturb birds far less than big lenses and is a lot easier to lug about on foot too!

[MJB]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

Paul. If you walked out to the middle of a long established wader roost after it had formed and couldn't claim lack of local knowledge as a mitigation, I think the P word would be appropriate. The W word and the FW word were used on the phone to me.

Jane,
Isn't it ironic that 'adult' language is so seldom used in an adult or witty manner?

Perhaps we should submit an additional definition to the OED for the word pillock? You saw it here, first, folks!
MJB

[chowchilla]

Originally Posted by MJB

Jane,
Isn't it ironic that 'adult' language is so seldom used in an adult or witty manner?

Perhaps we should submit an additional definition to the OED for the word pillock? You saw it here, first, folks!
MJB

You could then create a verb derivation: To Pillock.

I needn't supply a definition, it's self-explanatory.

[MJB]

Originally Posted by chowchilla

You could then create a verb derivation: To Pillock. I needn't supply a definition, it's self-explanatory.

Chowch,
I think it's clear to everyone why I enjoyed going birding with you on my Oz trip!
MJB

[chowchilla]

Originally Posted by MJB

Chowch,
I think it's clear to everyone why I enjoyed going birding with you on my Oz trip!
MJB

I'm being a bit cheeky I guess....

Hope all's well mike.

Sorry, going off topic!