Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Sunday 5th July 2015, 21:19   #26
zzffnn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Posts: 17
Dear Binastro,

You are right! Both Orion's product page and I got it wrong (Orion listed 3.3-2.4 as both real FOV and AFOV and I calculated it wrong).

AFOV of 25x should be (2.4 degrees) x (25 fold magnification) = 60 degrees, which is pretty close to your 55 degrees estimation.

AFOV at 10x is 3.3x10=33 degrees, so you are exactly right!

Thank you so much for mentioning that 14x of the zoom has much larger AFOV than 10x. 14x and up is mostly what I would be using, so that is very encouraging!

I need large AFOV as my eyes are weird :-p
I guess primarily because I usually have glasses on (due to terrible eye sight and significantly worse left eye), so my eyes do not get close enough to get the full calculated view field (when I remove my glasses, view field increase significantly).

As an example to illustrate what my strange eyes demand - in my pursue of microscopy, I spent lots of money on wide field high eye point eyepieces :-( (while most people can live with eye lens the size of a bean and use the savings on Apo objectives).

Last edited by zzffnn : Sunday 5th July 2015 at 21:32.
zzffnn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 6th July 2015, 10:56   #27
typo
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hertfordshire
Posts: 3,334
Somewhat off at a tangent but I see Carson has magnifiers, monoculars and adaptors to work with the Samasumg Galaxy S4 and iPhone which look fun. Have a look at the videos.
http://www.carson.com/accessories/sm...rs/1386-ml-415
https://youtu.be/MfrEJn8e57g

David
typo is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 6th July 2015, 12:41   #28
jaymoynihan
Corvus brachyrhynchos watcher
 
jaymoynihan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Michigan Watershed
Posts: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by brocknroller View Post
... binoculars for 'bugging.' ... the stereoscopic view will collapse at very close distances, and you will essentially have a mono view, anyway, which is why the Papilio has moveable objectives.
Not with the Papilio, nor with with the Vortex Viper 8x32 HD, which has a very nice close focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brocknroller View Post
I use for looking at insects is a microscope pen.
Must not be an eyeglass wearer
__________________
"If there is a heaven, and i am allowed entrance, I will ask for no more than an endless living world to walk through and explore. I will carry with me an inexhaustible supply of notebooks from which i can send back reports to the more sedentary spirits." E.O. Wilson

Last edited by jaymoynihan : Monday 6th July 2015 at 12:47.
jaymoynihan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 6th July 2015, 12:46   #29
jaymoynihan
Corvus brachyrhynchos watcher
 
jaymoynihan's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Michigan Watershed
Posts: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar View Post
zzffnn,

Leica makes a first rate 8x20 monocular which comes with a screw-on close-up
lens attachment. Full info in link below.

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/site.pl?page=40390

Bob
Have had one for a few years, love it. But i seldom use it in macro mode due the necessity of adding/subtracting macro lenses...
However, it lives in my briefcase of shoulder bag. Many uses.
__________________
"If there is a heaven, and i am allowed entrance, I will ask for no more than an endless living world to walk through and explore. I will carry with me an inexhaustible supply of notebooks from which i can send back reports to the more sedentary spirits." E.O. Wilson
jaymoynihan is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 6th July 2015, 13:07   #30
Gijs van Ginkel
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: utrecht
Posts: 1,202
zzffnn,
A number of brands have made binoculars/monoculars which can function as a microscope with low magnification. The Leica 8x20 has already been mentioned, but Pentax has made an 8x30 monocular with close-up lens making magnifications of 25x possible. Zeisss has made a special piece of equipment which in combination with the small 6x20, 8x20 and 10x25 pocket binoculars makes a binocular microscope with low magnification. There is also a number of Japanese brands which just like the monocular Pentax 8x30 can function as a low magnification microscope. Zeiss Jena has made a special piece of equipment (now rarely found) which in combination with one of their monoculars functions a s a low magnification microscope. The Zeiss 6x20 monocular can focus up to a very short distance which gives a 6x magnifying instrument which allows the close observation of insects etc,.
Undoubtedly there are more possibilities, but this is what popped up in my mind.
Gijs van Ginkel
Gijs van Ginkel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 6th July 2015, 18:57   #31
brocknroller
Registered User
 
brocknroller's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 5,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Binastro View Post
. Hi Brock,
. Isn't the problem with these magnifying pens that the working distance is very short.
With the Papilio and the close focus monoculars the working distance is much longer.

I don't usually like bugs that much, and they don't seem to like me, at least the flying ones. So I don't know much about looking at them with optical instruments.

For close work instead of using a magnifying pen, I use the terrestrial eyepiece from an old 3 inch refractor or the complete eyepiece tube and optics from Broadhurst Clarkson ship's telescopes. These give a wonderful view of high quality. And they cost nothing because I already have the telescope.
In fact I bought broken old collapsible telescopes for next to nothing, just to get these eyepieces, which are often beautifully made to high standards.
Yes, the working distance of the magnifying pens is short. Sometimes the shadow of the pen darkens the insect you want to view. That's why I recommended the pens with the built-in lights. It really is like a portable microscope. The Papilio is much more versatile as a macroscope.

Brock

Last edited by brocknroller : Monday 6th July 2015 at 19:02.
brocknroller is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 29th July 2015, 20:13   #32
zzffnn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Posts: 17
Gents, I got an used Orion 10-25x42 from Amazon warehouse deals for $66 shipped. Condition is like new and everything works well. For the price, I am happy with it.

Binastro described it well.

To my eyes, quality view is between 10 to 18x. Beyond 20x or so, image gets dark very quickly and focus depth is very shallow (as expected). Decent with my glasses and much better without (at >= 20x there is reflection between my glasses and the monocular). I tend to leave it at 18x and use it on tripod.

I would say my Pentax Papilio 6.5x and old Russian 10x42 produce sharper images. But for my casual use, the Orion is just fine. And I like it as a portable 18x macroscope as it is. After all, there is no better alternative on the market, if you want a 18x portable macroscope.

I also found that my old Russian 10x42 porro biniculars can work as a maroscope with +2 diopter (camera) lenses in front of the objectives. I simply use mounting putty to attach the diopter lenses (which are Vivitar series 1 62 mm). +4 diopters are too difficult to use due to shallow focus. With +2 diopter they can focus at around 0.3 meter away. Between Orion at 10x vs. this DIY, I like the DIY better as its image is shaper, brighter and more comfortable (bino vs mono). But the DIY rig is quite heavy and only 10x.

Last edited by zzffnn : Wednesday 29th July 2015 at 20:26.
zzffnn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 29th July 2015, 20:21   #33
zzffnn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Posts: 17
Gijs van Ginkel,

Do you know the name/model number of the Zeiss products that you mentioned? Thank you.
__________________
Selling my Nikon E Plan 20x microscope objective in the Classified section.

Last edited by zzffnn : Wednesday 29th July 2015 at 20:44.
zzffnn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 30th July 2015, 18:45   #34
zzffnn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Posts: 17
It looks like I spoke too soon. My field test showed that to observe live insect behavior, a macroscope has to focus quickly and follow the focus very well (insects move very fast). With that criterion in mind, my results are:

1) Pentax Papilio 6.5x 21 works very well (focus whel is very fast and smooth), I only wish for more magnification. Looks like I have to buy the 8.5x version later on. Jay, since you study ants with your Papilio 8.5X, I assume that you like it that way?

2) Orion 10-25x42 does not work well. It took too long to focus at its close focus point (2 feet away) and its focus wheel cannot turn fast enough to follow an insect.

3) my DIY +2 diopter plus Russian 10x42 porro binoculars does not work at all. Its focus wheel does not work at close focus and I have to move the entire binoculars.

With that said, I would probably still keep the Orion. Its 25x magnification is useful sometimes and it can be adapted to my micro 4/3 camera very well using an Orion digiscoping adapter (Orion SteadyPix Pro). I will use it for photographing faraway subjects.
__________________
Selling my Nikon E Plan 20x microscope objective in the Classified section.

Last edited by zzffnn : Thursday 30th July 2015 at 19:04.
zzffnn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 30th July 2015, 19:02   #35
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,286
Hi zzffnn,
The Minolta compact AF 8 823 autofocus binocular focuses to 2 m according to the specifications.
It achieves critical focus in about one 10th of a second.
I don't know if it could be adapted for closer focus. The autofocus module might not work with a close-up lens, and am not sure how compatibile it is with similar dioptre close-up lenses on the objectives.
In addition, the objectives do not move sideways.
It was also available as a 1023 with similar specifications.

Looking through the viewfinder of a compact camera, it may be possible to follow an insect in real-time with continuous autofocus.

The Minolta autofocus binocular is really quite amazing, and I don't know why it was not developed further to reduce the size. There are other, possibly earlier Minolta autofocus binoculars, that may not be so good, and the 8x23 may have been their last attempt. Obviously it didn't sell very well.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 30th July 2015, 19:37   #36
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,286
I've just been using the Minolta 823, and the autofocus does work at 2 m. Even in rather poor light.
I get a better view if I slightly change the IPD when using it close-up.

P. S.
I've just been looking through the electronic viewfinder of my camera, and when I point the television remote control at the lens, I can clearly see the infrared quite largish apparently white circular beam repeatedly going on and off when I press the remote control button.

However, when I point the Minolta 823 binocular at the camera lens and then press the autofocus button, I see nothing. I also tried photographing the binocular with another camera while pointing the binocular at the lens and again nothing.
So I don't know how the autofocus mechanism works on this Minolta binocular.

Last edited by Binastro : Thursday 30th July 2015 at 19:46.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 31st July 2015, 14:57   #37
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,286
. Hi zzffnn,
I'm sorry that the monocular proved to be unsuitable, but I think the exercise was worth doing.

Some of the other monoculars, from Opticron and others, which are specially made for close focus, might work well with moving insects.

As to the Minolta autofocus binocular, I think that the autofocus may be passive and work perhaps on contrast.
It might actually work just by putting two equal close-up lenses in front of the objectives. I'm not sure that I have a matched pair to try it.
I am impressed by the Minolta autofocus binocular's ability. It is probably more than 20 years old.

Some modern cameras will I think work very well in continuous autofocus even close-up.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 31st July 2015, 16:06   #38
zzffnn
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Posts: 17
Thank you Binastro for your kind comments. No worries. I like the Orion enough to keep it.

The Minolta that you mentioned close focuses at 2 meters, which is too far for my use (observing live insect behavior).

On the other hand, those microscope convertible type monoculars, such as Opticron, focus too close (most at less than 0.1 m) for me. Insects would be disturbed when I approach that close. And when I really need to get that close for maximum resolution, I would catch the insect and put it under a real microscope (whose focus distance is less than 0.12 m and mostly less than 0.05 m).

Sorry, my eyes don't like observing long term using camera's viewfinder. Battery drains quickly that way and my neck/back also hurts (remember I would be close to ground when observing insects).
__________________
Selling my Nikon E Plan 20x microscope objective in the Classified section.

Last edited by zzffnn : Friday 31st July 2015 at 16:13.
zzffnn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 1st August 2015, 14:52   #39
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,286
. Hi zzffnn,
I am now trying the 6.521 Papilio II with an Opticron UTA universal tele-adapter, 2.5 times push fit.
This is the version which is a companion to the 842 and 1042 monocular. It says for DBA and BGA monoculars.
I think, though, there may be many different adapters available to fit these to different binoculars? These may be free if you buy the Opticron adapter new.

There is excessive eye relief for me, although there is a long travel rotating eyecup that more or less suits me.
I'm using this on the right side of the Papilio binocular. One has to centre the adapter to get the full field of view. I think that it would be easy to use this wearing spectacles.

The apparent field of view using the adapter is about 42.
The magnification is around 16 times, I think, which gives a 1621 monocular. The real field of view is probably about 2.5

It is possible to get the full use of the focus wheel with the left hand, and I think that this arrangement would suit the viewing of insects.
However, although the resolution is better than without the adapter, hand tremor may mean that there is not that much gained in actual fact.
It is something that you might consider trying if you have access to this tele-adapter.

I think that a two times booster would be better. There are some but they are expensive.
The Opticron adapter cost 49 as new, second hand.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 1st August 2015, 15:00   #40
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,286
Re. post 39.

The image using the 2.5 times tele-adapter is a lot duller than the view through the Papilio binocular without the adapter.
However, on a sunny day the image may well be bright enough when viewing insects.

I was using the combination of the 6.521 Papilio II and the 2.5 times tele-adapter at a distance of about 0.5 m computer screen to the objectives of the Papilio II.
Of course the combination is longer than the binocular alone.
The specifications say that the adapter has a height of 76 mm, a diameter of 46 mm and a weight of 110 g.

Last edited by Binastro : Saturday 1st August 2015 at 15:20.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 1st August 2015, 16:00   #41
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,286
.Experiment no. 2

. Not having close-up lenses handy, I used a made in China, el-cheapo reading glasses of +2.00 dioptres costing a few pounds. The lenses are not that great, I think plastic and on reflections they do not seem to have very good surface accuracy.

With the Minolta 823 compact AF 8 autofocus binocular, I placed one half of the spectacles in front of the right objective of the binocular. I was surprised how close I got.
With the binocular focused at 2 m, and using the spectacle lens, the computer screen letters were sharp at about 0.4 m.
With the binocular focused at the far point the computer screen to objective distance was about 0.5 m. These are rough figures.

The autofocus worked at these close distances, as I suspected it would.
The distance from the centre of the autofocus window to the edge of the objective is about 2 cm or less than 1 inch. If one was viewing insects I don't know whether or how this displacement would be relevant.

There is also the point that the dioptre correction range of this binocular is from -12 to +4, which is 16 dioptres.
Again, I don't know how one can use this to give a very large focus range.

. But the autofocus seems to work at close distances although it was taking about 0.3 seconds to get the focus point rather than 0.1 seconds approximately when used normally.
The image of the letters on the computer screen was not good, but I was only holding the spectacle glass in front of the objective, and it was certainly not positioned or angled correctly. In addition the contrast was not that good, but I think that is because the spectacle lens to binocular gap was completely open where it should be in a blackened tube.

If done properly, with an optically good +2 dioptre close-up lens, I think the results would be reasonable.
As mentioned, this binocular was also available as a 1023, although I haven't come across one yet.

Last edited by Binastro : Saturday 1st August 2015 at 16:02.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 2nd August 2015, 15:38   #42
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,286
. Hi zzffnn,
I remembered that the accessory U adapter for Pentax compact binoculars steadies the 6.521 Papilio II very well. It just screws into the tripod socket and weighs 18 g. It is about 6 cm long tapering to the top with a wider base. The only point to note is that the U adapter could unscrew in use, so one has to check periodically that it is secure.

I would think that the 8.521 Papilio II with the U adapter would provide greater resolution than the 6.521 held normally, at least for my viewing.

Whether looking at insects close-up and having to rapidly focus, the U post would increase resolution, I don't know, but I suspect it will.

It seems that the Papilio II binoculars are really first-rate at doing what they are designed to do. Namely looking at butterflies etc close-up.

I haven't yet looked at the Sony digital binoculars to see if they focus close and have continuous autofocus.
They are fairly heavy and expensive. Hopefully if the third version comes out with 4K technology it will be a really useful instrument.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Expriencing the Papilio II 6.5x21 oetzi Pentax 30 Thursday 26th November 2015 21:07
Pentax Papilio 6.5x21 KorHaan Pentax 17 Friday 30th December 2011 23:18
Review of Papilio 8.5x21 Binoculars jaymoynihan Pentax 6 Friday 14th August 2009 00:20



Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.19874692 seconds with 28 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 07:32.