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Old Friday 26th May 2017, 01:59   #1
towliff
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MM4 60mm with SDL v2 and 2x teleadaptor or 72x eyepiece (40861)

Good Evening,

I am new to this forum - I have been browsing it for information about spotting scopes.

I have read a lot and have decided I would like to purchase the MM4 60 mm angled scope when money permits. I will use it primarily for archery - viewing where the arrows land on the target and distinguishing my arrows from competitors arrows. For this, i need to be able to see the small fletchings and plastic coloured nocks very clearly at distances up to 100yd/90m. I also need to use it at 30m distance.

I currently use a barr & stroud sierra 80mm scope (20-60x mag) which is pretty good (for the price) but is difficult to distinguish between arrows at long distance. I usually leave it at 20x mag due to it being not so clearly foccused at high mag and also the drop in brightness.

I like the idea of having the high quality optics of the mm4 and SDL 2 as the reduced CA will significantly help in arrow identification. However, I would like the ability to zoom beyond the 45x of this eyepiece.

It looks like I have two options to achieve this:

1. 2x Universal Tele Adaptor on the SDL v2 - giving 30-90x magnification.

or

2. 72x mag eyepiece (40861)

My questions are:
Have any of you had experience with either of these set ups and what are they like?

Does the UTA darken the image?

As i need to adjust between 90m down to 30m during a conpetition, the 72x eyepiece wouldnt be suitable for the close range as its too zoomed in - which may be a problem for me!

Also, does anyone know if there is anywhere in the southampton / portsmouth area where I could check these out?

Many thanks for your help!!

James
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Old Friday 26th May 2017, 08:58   #2
pete_gamby
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Your best bets would be to visit LCE Winchester or go to one of the field events at either Blashford Lakes or WWT Arundel.

Details can be found on our dealer and events map:

http://www.opticron.co.uk/Pages/dealer_events_map.html

I suspect you might find that the quality of the MM4 with SDL will be sufficient for your needs but certainly testing it is the right thing to do. Make sure to take your current scope along to test side by side.

Cheers, Pete
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Old Friday 26th May 2017, 14:42   #3
Binastro
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Welcome.

Perhaps Action Optics, Southampton can get you one to try?
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Old Friday 26th May 2017, 15:07   #4
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I certainly agree with Pete's comments.

However, I was once very much into archery and still have my gear....

...and....

...I have the UTA and the MM4 60 mm with the SDL V2.

I will try the combination over the weekend and let you know what I think for that particular application.

Having said that, and from past experience with the UTA on the MM scopes, I don't remember a notable loss in brightness or sharpness when using them. However, I do remember the drop in real and apparent field of view. Expected, of course, because of the design but considering your application (static object), I doubt it would be a concern.
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Old Saturday 27th May 2017, 09:43   #5
towliff
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Thanks very much for the feedback gentlemen!

Thats good to see there are several events nearby which I can attend. I certainly intend to try before I buy considering the amount of money involved! I will also check out the shops mentioned.

Frank - thank you very much for offering to check the combination - especially for my application! Indeed FOV isnt too important for what I want here - only up to 1m fov at 90m is needed. I could even get away with 50cm (as i shouldnt really be hitting outside of the red at that distance).

Thanks very much!!

James
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Old Monday 29th May 2017, 15:00   #6
typo
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James,

Welcome to the forum.

I did competition archery in several different styles over many years but gave up about ten years ago due to a shoulder problem. At the time I didn't own a scope but generally didn't have a problem spotting my arrows at 90m with a 10x monocular. I'm a little puzzled why your B&S 80mm scope isn't up to the job. It might not have the highest performance around but it really should do at least 30x comfortably in good light, though you might need to back off a bit if it gets really gloomy. With average eyesight and 30x you should be counting the aphids landing on your arrows at 90m. Have you compared your scope to others in similar conditions and pinpointed it's deficiencies?

I don't use scopes a lot but I am familiar with the MM3 and have tried the MM4 briefly. They are optically very good and I would expect the 60mm to at least match the B&S 80mm for resolution and offer better contrast and CA control, but it's unlikely you will see much more detail beyond 30x. At 72x the exit pupil will only 0.83mm the resulting view pretty dim, and your visual acuity about half as good wiping out any advantage. You might need to drop to 15x at 30m to get the best results in low light.

I think the MM4 would make a fine archery spotting scope, but do check carefully that it meets your expectations.

David
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Old Monday 29th May 2017, 23:30   #7
towliff
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Thanks for responding. It works fine, but isn't great for distinguishing the vanes of the arrows. It can be tricky to focus as it allears to have a very shallow depth of field. Ive compared it with other scopes of similar size and have found its less clear in general. A brand which stood out as being much better for the same price was Acuter. I have also compared my scope to a much smaller but much higher quality Nikon 50mm scope with a fixed mag eyepiece. The difference is astounding. Even with the much smaller objective, the image is just as bright but the definition is extremely better.

Since im looking to compete at a high level (fingers crossed!) I want be be able to spot my arrows comfortably and quickly. Plus since I travel abroad for the occasional comp, a smaller, lighter scope would be ideal.

My coach has an old Opticron scope which is probably close to my age....but is still brilliant! This proved the quality of Opticron in my eyes hence why ive decided to look into upgrading to an opticron. I want to upgrade once and then never have to change it. It looks like the 60mm MM4 is a fantastic option for this. I'm sure 15-45 mag will indeed work perfectly for me with this scope, I am however interested in learning about all options available with regards to the set up. I've not found a great deal of info about the teleadapter hence posing the question. As Pete said, I will have to see for myself.

I think in my mind I've allready chosen the sdl and 60mm MM4....just need to cobble together the cash!
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Old Tuesday 30th May 2017, 03:01   #8
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I think you might want to know about fixed mag eyepieces as well, given that the Nikon impressed you that much with one.

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Old Tuesday 30th May 2017, 07:58   #9
typo
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James,

The B&S does sound a bit of a lemon.

Just a bit of background to my earlier comments. There is always a juggling act between the optical performance of the scope and that of your eyes. Scopes have a theoretical resolution limit related to objective diameter, and so do your eyes... in theory. In reality it's often the latter that really dictates maximum usable magnification. Just as visual acuity (and pupil diameter) changes with light levels your visual acuity will also change with exit pupil. Excessive magnification will be counter productive, but what the most useful maximum for each scope size actually is will depend on your own visual acuity. Someone with 'normal' 6/6 (20/20) eyesight will need 40x100 to see the same level of detail as someone with 6/3 (20/10) acuity with a 20x50 in good light. If optically perfect that would be distinguishing 3.25mm tall letters at 90m. A good quality scope won't be too far out and should be plenty of performance for your needs. You need to figure out where you sit in that range. It's very likely that the MM4 will meet your needs but it's something only you can decide.

For what it's worth, I spent some time comparing the MM3 50 with the SDL to the Nikon ED50. It was a close run thing but I thought the Opticron had marginally better contrast and CA control at higher magnification.

With a young family I never had the time to put in the training to progress beyond county level but it sound like you have your sights set on higher things. Good luck.

David

PS. I wrote something about Opticron's UTA and binoculars that might help a little.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=329496

Last edited by typo : Tuesday 30th May 2017 at 08:14.
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Old Wednesday 31st May 2017, 18:31   #10
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I have the MM4 60 along with HDF, SDLv2 and 72x fixed so I'm in a good position to advise.

I find that the SDLv2 is very slightly brighter and sharper than the HDF and it also gives slightly more magnification at max zoom. Not sure why this is but Opticron say that the MM4 was designed with the HDF and the SDLv2 is designed for the ED range. The 72x is OK for looking at the moon or static objects but you will definitely notice a drop in brightness due to small exit pupil. The field of view is also much narrower making it tricky to find your target initially. I bought the scope for birding and have hardy used the 72x for the reasons mentioned (only bought it coz I got it half price, ex display!).

In summary I would recommend the SDLv2 although I am actually sending mine back today as it seems to have a foreign body inside! Glad I haven't sold the HDF yet!! Hope this helps and good luck
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Old Thursday 1st June 2017, 00:33   #11
towliff
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Again, thanks for all of the info guys!! I find it fascinating how people are always happy to help out and share information when asked! I think everything you've shared leads to the same outcome - the SDL is the best option. I can choose for higher mag at the sacrifice of fov and brightness - but at the end of the day its my eyes which will determine what works best.

David, your comment about the MM4 + SDL in your opinion slightly outperforming the Nikon is the final seal in the deal. Thank you!! You're right about not having the time to practice with a young family. I struggle to find enough time to continuously improve - and I dont have any kids yet!! I love the sport so i will do all i can to progress as far as possible.

I'm certain the MM4 and SDL will make its way into my kit - its just a matter of time. :)

Thanks guys!

James
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