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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 01:43   #51
Chosun Juan
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Originally Posted by HermitIbis View Post
Great link - the photos showing a dog running towards the camera are indeed impressive. I've never tried that, yet the Nikon V2 might struggle. It does definitely struggle with small birds flying towards the camera, the AF of the Nikon V2 cannot adjust so fast.

By the way, are you tempted to buy this Sony bridge camera yourself? You are presently using a Nikon D7200, right? For an enthusiastic birder, will 600mm suffice in "most" situations? I used to consider 600mm rather as a (lower) point where the fun begins.
GREAT question! :)

I am currently mulling over several options ....

Upgrading to the more hand filling grip and greater frame rate of the Nikon D500 + maybe the 200-500 f5.6, or the Nikon D850 + 600 f4 and TC'S (madness!! :), and/or the Sony RX-10 IV .....

What I know for sure is that I would like a bit more sharpness at 600mm than the Tammy offers. I would also like a larger aperture than f6.3 --- f5.6 or numerically less. This will involve more weight and cost, with the weight being the issue of greatest concern. I also know that the Sony's grip is not quite hand filling enough for ultimate satisfaction (a friend has the RX-10 III which I've tried) - though this might be a small sacrifice to make on the Mk IV given its many other advantages.

I wish Nikon would hurry up and reduce the weight of their 300mm f2.8 down to ~2200 grams and give it some FL glass already. It would work great with a 2x TC on the D500 (I have a friend who runs the Canon equivalent - 7D MkII + 300mm f2.8 IS II + 2x TC ..... very nice, well apart from the Canon sensor which the Nikon D7200 flogs).

Then of course Canon has the lovely 400mm f4 DO IS II that takes a 1.4x TC beautifully (for which Nikon has no equivalent), and the rumoured 600mm f4 DO IS III should make an appearance within the next ~12 months (for which Nikon has no comparable - pull your finger out Nikon! :). Honestly a 600mm F4 DO (or PF) sounds like something of a holy grail ..... I would be on it quicker than a seagull on a hot chip!!!

Then there is the Canon 7D MkIII which will inevitably arrive (when ????) but will it match the D500??? Also, what could Canon do with a hi-res upgrade to the 5D - could it match or surpass the Nikon D850 for DR and fps? You would think Canon would be sick of getting trounced by Nikon in bodies by now .....

Arrrggggh! Decisions Decisions and forever just out of reach damn dangling carrots!

Perhaps the Sony RX-10 IV makes a very sensible interim or even final resting spot!

I agree with you about the fun beginning at 600mm. My 150-600 Tammy is nearly always maxed out and the D7200 on 1.3x in-camera crop factor (this gives me about 1150mm equivalent @ 14.2MP all things considered) .... I would say it's needed about 3/4 of the time. A much shorter minimum focus distance (MFD) than 2.7m would help on a bit more too.

The Sony will crop losslessly (ie not digitally) to 900mm @10MP, and 1200mm @5MP, and the MFD is 0.72m, so that will be handy. I am due to trial the Nikon options I mentioned in a couple of weeks - hopefully I can get my hands on the little Sony to compare too



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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 06:08   #52
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Thank you everyone for all of this feedback. It has been very helpful, and it's been great to see the photos people have posted with the various rigs.

I think bridge cameras are awesome. However, in this case I am sticking with DLSR. This is mostly because 1) I do a decent amount of landscape photography, and have a battery of Nikon lenses for that use case. I will want to continue to use them with whatever new body I buy. And 2) I really just love shooting DLSR, for many reasons.
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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 06:35   #53
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
GREAT question! :)

I am currently mulling over several options ....

Upgrading to the more hand filling grip and greater frame rate of the Nikon D500 + maybe the 200-500 f5.6, or the Nikon D850 + 600 f4 and TC'S (madness!! :), and/or the Sony RX-10 IV .....

What I know for sure is that I would like a bit more sharpness at 600mm than the Tammy offers. I would also like a larger aperture than f6.3 --- f5.6 or numerically less. This will involve more weight and cost, with the weight being the issue of greatest concern. I also know that the Sony's grip is not quite hand filling enough for ultimate satisfaction (a friend has the RX-10 III which I've tried) - though this might be a small sacrifice to make on the Mk IV given its many other advantages.

I wish Nikon would hurry up and reduce the weight of their 300mm f2.8 down to ~2200 grams and give it some FL glass already. It would work great with a 2x TC on the D500 (I have a friend who runs the Canon equivalent - 7D MkII + 300mm f2.8 IS II + 2x TC ..... very nice, well apart from the Canon sensor which the Nikon D7200 flogs).

Then of course Canon has the lovely 400mm f4 DO IS II that takes a 1.4x TC beautifully (for which Nikon has no equivalent), and the rumoured 600mm f4 DO IS III should make an appearance within the next ~12 months (for which Nikon has no comparable - pull your finger out Nikon! :). Honestly a 600mm F4 DO (or PF) sounds like something of a holy grail ..... I would be on it quicker than a seagull on a hot chip!!!

Then there is the Canon 7D MkIII which will inevitably arrive (when ????) but will it match the D500??? Also, what could Canon do with a hi-res upgrade to the 5D - could it match or surpass the Nikon D850 for DR and fps? You would think Canon would be sick of getting trounced by Nikon in bodies by now .....

Arrrggggh! Decisions Decisions and forever just out of reach damn dangling carrots!

Perhaps the Sony RX-10 IV makes a very sensible interim or even final resting spot!

I agree with you about the fun beginning at 600mm. My 150-600 Tammy is nearly always maxed out and the D7200 on 1.3x in-camera crop factor (this gives me about 1150mm equivalent @ 14.2MP all things considered) .... I would say it's needed about 3/4 of the time. A much shorter minimum focus distance (MFD) than 2.7m would help on a bit more too.

The Sony will crop losslessly (ie not digitally) to 900mm @10MP, and 1200mm @5MP, and the MFD is 0.72m, so that will be handy. I am due to trial the Nikon options I mentioned in a couple of weeks - hopefully I can get my hands on the little Sony to compare too



Chosun
Been trying to find some real world examples of this,do you have any links.
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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 07:38   #54
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Been trying to find some real world examples of this,do you have any links.
Mike, I didn't find any pictures at a quick scan, but the section below is from the Rockwell review of the Mk III, that I linked on page 2 of this thread. Note - he states elsewhere he usually shoots in jpeg.


"Zooming

The incredible lens zooms very well. It's easy to set precise framing with the zoom ring, and just as easily you can use the little zoom lever in front of the shutter button to get in range quickly. Unlike camcorders, the zoom rings and lever only work at one speed each, with the lever faster than the ring.

At the lower 10MP and 5MP image sizes, it zooms through 1.5x or 2x "digital" zoom, while in fact it's smart enough simply to be doing some clever cropping of the full-resolution 20MP image and reformatting it to 10MP or 5MP; in other words, 1.5x or 2x zoom really does get to the equivalent of 900 or 1,200mm without losing sharpness at the 10MP and 5MP image settings, which are where I usually shoot.

The finder reports the equivalent focal length as you zoom from 24mm to 600mm, while the file's EXIF (and file information in Playback mode) reports the actual focal lengths (8.8 to 220mm).

In A mode, the lens always uses the aperture set on the aperture ring from f/4 to f/16. The lens has a variable maximum aperture, but the aperture ring has fixed markings. If you set wider than f/4 and the lens can't go that wide at longer zoom settings, no worries, the lens simply uses its widest aperture.

I find the zoom ring is too far back; sometimes I grab the front (focus) ring, which doesn't zoom the lens."


Hope that helps for now .....



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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 09:35   #55
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However, in this case I am sticking with DLSR. This is mostly because 1) I do a decent amount of landscape photography, and have a battery of Nikon lenses for that use case. I will want to continue to use them with whatever new body I buy. And 2) I really just love shooting DLSR, for many reasons.
After shooting with a V2 I couldn't return to my SX50 either. The EVF or the speed of 3-4 fps are a pain. Using a Canon DSLR with a 400mm prime creates such a lovely depth of field, impossible to get with a mirrorless like the V2. I did lots of comparison shooting with the SX50, the V2 (810mm equivalent) and the Canon DSLR (700mm equivalent). The DSLR won in terms of image quality. The V2 won in terms of BIF and 15fps. We have our preferences...
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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 10:03   #56
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Both present and detected Andy.
Nice one!

Bit late for HB?

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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 12:02   #57
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Mike, I didn't find any pictures at a quick scan, but the section below is from the Rockwell review of the Mk III, that I linked on page 2 of this thread. Note - he states elsewhere he usually shoots in jpeg.


"Zooming

The incredible lens zooms very well. It's easy to set precise framing with the zoom ring, and just as easily you can use the little zoom lever in front of the shutter button to get in range quickly. Unlike camcorders, the zoom rings and lever only work at one speed each, with the lever faster than the ring.

At the lower 10MP and 5MP image sizes, it zooms through 1.5x or 2x "digital" zoom, while in fact it's smart enough simply to be doing some clever cropping of the full-resolution 20MP image and reformatting it to 10MP or 5MP; in other words, 1.5x or 2x zoom really does get to the equivalent of 900 or 1,200mm without losing sharpness at the 10MP and 5MP image settings, which are where I usually shoot.

The finder reports the equivalent focal length as you zoom from 24mm to 600mm, while the file's EXIF (and file information in Playback mode) reports the actual focal lengths (8.8 to 220mm).

In A mode, the lens always uses the aperture set on the aperture ring from f/4 to f/16. The lens has a variable maximum aperture, but the aperture ring has fixed markings. If you set wider than f/4 and the lens can't go that wide at longer zoom settings, no worries, the lens simply uses its widest aperture.

I find the zoom ring is too far back; sometimes I grab the front (focus) ring, which doesn't zoom the lens."


Hope that helps for now .....



Chosun
There has been a lot of positive talk about the extra zoom but like you i cant faind any photographic proof.
For the first time today out of interest i tried the 2X digital converter built into the Olympus EM10 MK11, with the kit 40-150.
Two samples without and with.
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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 13:21   #58
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There has been a lot of positive talk about the extra zoom but like you i cant faind any photographic proof.
For the first time today out of interest i tried the 2X digital converter built into the Olympus EM10 MK11, with the kit 40-150.
Two samples without and with.
Mike that looks pretty good. The way it works on all these cameras can't be magic though, it is simply cropping either within, or outside of the camera. Those truncated pixels from the periphery are discarded and the resultant resolution reduced correspondingly to the area (given by the new multiple reduction in Fov). I don't have any information on what the viewfinder display looks like for the Sony in this mode. In the D7200 there is a single line open frame around the 1.3x crop, making the rest of the viewfinder available for finding subjects. I would prefer a boundary a bit more solid though - like a thick line, as it is easy to chop off a wingtip etc.



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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 13:56   #59
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Mike that looks pretty good. The way it works on all these cameras can't be magic though, it is simply cropping either within, or outside of the camera. Those truncated pixels from the periphery are discarded and the resultant resolution reduced correspondingly to the area (given by the new multiple reduction in Fov). I don't have any information on what the viewfinder display looks like for the Sony in this mode. In the D7200 there is a single line open frame around the 1.3x crop, making the rest of the viewfinder available for finding subjects. I would prefer a boundary a bit more solid though - like a thick line, as it is easy to chop off a wingtip etc.



Chosun
Dont know if it works like the 1.3 crop in the Nikons but the none converter shot comes out the camera in jpeg at 4608 x 3456 @ 7.14mb the converter image 4608 x 3456 @ 6.10mb so not a lot in it.
I have a feeling though a small bird over some distance would not work very well.
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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 14:35   #60
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Similar in camera crop has been found in Panasonic cameras for a long time. They only work in that camera if you are using jpg for saving, not in RAW mode. Given my preference for RAW I do not use the crop modes. Those who have used the crop modes have reported more precise focusing on small subjects at a distance when using the crop compared to not using it.

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Old Sunday 29th October 2017, 17:57   #61
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Similar in camera crop has been found in Panasonic cameras for a long time. They only work in that camera if you are using jpg for saving, not in RAW mode. Given my preference for RAW I do not use the crop modes. Those who have used the crop modes have reported more precise focusing on small subjects at a distance when using the crop compared to not using it.

Niels
I do quite a bit of bug photography and I find that by minimising the optical zoom and using the digital crop, I get better results if I can't quite get close enough to use macro.

For example, if I can get within say 30cm, I'll zoom in to say 20% of max and concentrate on getting the sharpest image I can from that distance instead of zooming all the way in. What I end up with once digitally cropped is usually much better than a fully zoomed image plus crop.


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Old Friday 3rd November 2017, 03:16   #62
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HeadWest ,

As I see it, your choices (for a given minimum BIF, quality, reach benchmark) are going to come down to 3 things - weight/size/cost.

1. Sony 1" 20MP RX-10 IV 24-600mm f2.4-f4 ..... 1.1kg ..... 145mm length .... 1700 USD.
2. Nikon APS-C 24MP D7200 (765gr/$900) + Nikon 300 PF f4 (=450mm equiv.) 755gr ..... 1.5kg ..... ~205mm length ..... 2900 USD total. NB. using 1.3x in-camera crop gives 585mm equiv. f4 @14.2 MP
3. Nikon APS-C 24MP D7200 (765gr/$900) + Nikon 300 PF f4 (755gr) + Nikon 1.4x TC III (=630mm equiv. @f5.6) ..... 1.7kg ..... ~230mm length ..... 3400 USD total. NB. using 1.3x in-camera crop gives 820mm equiv. f5.6 @14.2 MP
4. Nikon APS-C 24MP D7200 (765gr/$900) + Nikon 200-500 f4.5-f5.6 (=300mm-750mm equiv.) 2300gr ..... 3.1kg ..... ~325mm length ..... 2300 USD total. NB. using 1.3x in-camera crop gives 390mm-975mm equiv. f5.6 @14.2 MP

Compare these to your suggestion of the D7200 + 80-400:
5. Nikon APS-C 24MP D7200 (765gr/$900) + Nikon 80-400 f4.5-f5.6 (=120mm-600mm equiv.) 1570gr ..... 2.3kg ..... ~260mm length ..... 3200 USD total. NB. using 1.3x in-camera crop gives 155mm-780mm equiv. f5.6 @14.2 MP

Chosun
Just an update - I went with option 5: D7200 + 80-400 f4.5-5.6. I was tempted to go with the 200-500mm lens, but went and tried it out and it was just too big for what I wanted to carry around. Especially since often times I also have a scope with me. I also really did not like how much you have to turn the zoom ring on the 200-500mm. To go from wide to full zoom, you can't do it with one wrist turn. You have to grip and turn, release, grip and turn more. Just didn't like that.

I didn't really consider option 3 (300mm f4 PF + TC). I kind of wish I had now that I look at it. I think I'd prefer the range that comes with the zoom, but that's a nice light option.

After a couple days in the field with the new rig, I am very happy. It feels generations ahead of what I was using before. The AF is so fast, and images are so so sharp. And the d7200 itself. Great camera, so far at least. Shooting is much more fun and much less frustrating. Thanks again everyone.
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Old Friday 3rd November 2017, 13:29   #63
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Just an update - I went with option 5: D7200 + 80-400 f4.5-5.6. I was tempted to go with the 200-500mm lens, but went and tried it out and it was just too big for what I wanted to carry around. Especially since often times I also have a scope with me. I also really did not like how much you have to turn the zoom ring on the 200-500mm. To go from wide to full zoom, you can't do it with one wrist turn. You have to grip and turn, release, grip and turn more. Just didn't like that.

I didn't really consider option 3 (300mm f4 PF + TC). I kind of wish I had now that I look at it. I think I'd prefer the range that comes with the zoom, but that's a nice light option.

After a couple days in the field with the new rig, I am very happy. It feels generations ahead of what I was using before. The AF is so fast, and images are so so sharp. And the d7200 itself. Great camera, so far at least. Shooting is much more fun and much less frustrating. Thanks again everyone.
As someone who has had a D7200 for over a year now, I have to agree it is a great camera - I'm sure you'll continue to feel the same way about it.

Although I commended the 300mm PF, you make a good point that the 80-400 will be more versatile with its zoom range - just as there are times when I need more reach than a 300, there are other times (like close-in dolphins on a pelagic for example) when I wished I could've zoomed out.

Hope you enjoy your new kit!
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Old Friday 3rd November 2017, 23:01   #64
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Originally Posted by HeadWest View Post
Just an update - I went with option 5: D7200 + 80-400 f4.5-5.6. I was tempted to go with the 200-500mm lens, but went and tried it out and it was just too big for what I wanted to carry around. Especially since often times I also have a scope with me. I also really did not like how much you have to turn the zoom ring on the 200-500mm. To go from wide to full zoom, you can't do it with one wrist turn. You have to grip and turn, release, grip and turn more. Just didn't like that.

I didn't really consider option 3 (300mm f4 PF + TC). I kind of wish I had now that I look at it. I think I'd prefer the range that comes with the zoom, but that's a nice light option.

After a couple days in the field with the new rig, I am very happy. It feels generations ahead of what I was using before. The AF is so fast, and images are so so sharp. And the d7200 itself. Great camera, so far at least. Shooting is much more fun and much less frustrating. Thanks again everyone.
Great choice with the D7200

Being happy and having fun is what it is all about - enjoy! :)




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