[Sumit]

Respected Sirs,
I have one number raptor from 7,000 feet in the Sikkim Himalayas, India. Seems like it is an Oriental Honey Buzzard (worried after all the stuff I read in the HB vs CB thread!!!). Seems also like it is a Siberian race migrant (female Pernis ptilorhyncus orientalis ??), which is rare for India. The learned can guide me further.
Thanks,
Sumit

[Jane Turner]

Its got the small head... short arm, long hand and tails shape of a Pernis

[logos]

Undoubted OHB Sumit, tail pattern is visible amongst several other things. I'll look into racial later but the Simpsons are on TV now...

Spud

[Andrew Rowlands]

Hi Sumit,

It's a Pernis; no Buteo features that I can see.

When was it taken?

It is an adult bird, probably female.

Would the ringers that work the mountain passes in Khazakstan see this type? I think there is a web page of ?Chopek? Pass somewhere.............

Andy.

[Sumit]

Thanks folks! we got the Pernis ptilorhyncus bit out of the way, Phew!!!
Andy, this bird and 3 others were seen between November 17th and 20th this year while we were touring in Sikkim. Also had many migrating Steppe Eagles on the trip.
Sumit

[Jane Turner]

Out of curiosity.... how would you be sure that this wasn't a Honey Buzz

[Sumit]

Hi Jane,
The ignorant has the 1st go.
I am not sure not having seen one, but since to the best of my knowledge P.apivorus does not extend to India, the burden of selection has to fall on p.ptilorhyncus. I have read somewhere that the two are often considered conspecific. That is the extent I dare to go on this subject.
Cheers!
sumit

[Jane Turner]

So my next question...is how close do the two species get to each other?

[logos]

apivorus has only five fingers (p6, numbering ascendent, being barely if at all longer than p5) and ptilorhyncus has six fingers (p6 significantly longer than p5) like this bird.

As far as is known the two species do not have regularly overlapping breeding ranges and there are several hundred km between the westernmost breeding apivorus and the westernmost breeding ptilorhyncus.

Spud

[Andrew Rowlands]

Sumit,

Do you think that these birds are on their wintering grounds on that date?

Seems late (compared to what we know of P. apivorus) to be migrating.


Andy.

[logos]

I think there is a web page of ?Chopek? Pass somewhere.............

Unfortunately the Chokpak Pass website I know of disappeared some time ago. However, it didn't really deal with nitty gritty identification matters, more about numbers of birds trapped and the species occurring in the area.

I'm working on the subspecies stuff Sumit but it wont be a quick job.

Regarding the possible conspecifity of the two species, I believe there are reports of possible mixed pairs in eastern Kazakstan (presumably in the Altai?) but this is an area where both are uncommon to rare as breeding species.

On the subject of ID, while the primary details referred to above are the most consistent difference, pale OHB, of which there are many (especially in the migratory form orientalis) always lack dark carpal patches on the underwing. This is of no use in dark birds like that shown here by Sumit, of course.

Spud

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by logos

apivorus has only five fingers (p6, numbering ascendent, being barely if at all longer than p5) and ptilorhyncus has six fingers (p6 significantly longer than p5) like this bird.

As far as is known the two species do not have regularly overlapping breeding ranges and there are several hundred km between the westernmost breeding apivorus and the westernmost breeding ptilorhyncus.

Spud

That would be tough to get on an overhead bird without a photo to study afterwards

[logos]

It's not too bad with soaring birds and a bit of practice!

Spud

[Jane Turner]

Bearing in mind hw Hb is frequently mistaken for CB and v.v allegedly, that is a quite glib statement!

[logos]

Sorry, don't understand your point here, what's glib about it?

Perhaps you know of a better way of distinguishing birds with ambiguous plumage or when no plumage detail can be seen?

I don't think most people do/should have a problem distinguishing HB from CB...though some obviously do....I'm unsure why you're raising this point here anyway.

Spud

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Spud,
"I don't think most people do/should have a problem distinguishing HB from CB"
I would have a slight problem,as HB is a real rarity in Ireland and CB is a scarce visitor to Co.Cork,so I don't see them very often!That said,I have seen quite a few around the country(and elsewhere),and would almost certainly be able to pick out a HB providing I saw it well(though I did find HB/CB ID hard in Bulgaria in late Sep.99,but then I'd only seen 1 CB here before going!).
A few of us saw a "buzzard" near Ardmore(Co.Waterford) back in Oct.00(the time of the big HB invasion of the UK),but failed to get enough detail on it to ID it either way with any certainty....
Harry H

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by logos

Sorry, don't understand your point here, what's glib about it?

Perhaps you know of a better way of distinguishing birds with ambiguous plumage or when no plumage detail can be seen?

I don't think most people do/should have a problem distinguishing HB from CB...though some obviously do....I'm unsure why you're raising this point here anyway.

Spud

I was a drunk and b referring to the Honey buzard thread!