Kentish plover? chiffchaff? Egypt (1 Viewer)

Hi all,

I'm just writing up my trip report for last weeks trip to Marsa Alam, Egypt, and wanted to double check on these IDs.

For pics 1,2 & 3, I've got Kentish plover with lesser sand plover.

Pics 4 & 5 Any objections to chiffchaff?

Only 20 species seen in the week, but it was a SCUBA trip more than a birding trip.

I reckon they're both spot on...

Are you sure of Lesser Sand Plover? The bills are too difficult to judge from the pictures (at least for me), but the birds appear to have rather pale legs, which usually is a pointer towards Greater Sand Plover.

I'm glad that you question the sand plovers, I have been pondering this.

Heres a flight shot and another shot of just the sands (handheld digibins).

No trailing feet in the flight shot suggests lesser s.p yo me.

I think that how the feet trail behind the tip of the tail is not a too good feature (and is probably exaggerated in the Collins bird guide). Look at this Greater Sandplover:

http://www.tarsiger.com/images/linto/ChalesKI6W5318.jpg

I was indeed using the Collins guide, and your GSP photo doesnt have trailing feet. However, the bill dosent seem as heavy on my birds.

Hi there

Nice shots firstly, especially those in flight and hope you enjoyed the trip.

I'd have to say that the birds in your shots are Greater Sandplovers on the basis of:
1. the broadening primary bar
2. dark subterminal band on the tail with white outer feathers is a good feature for Greater; Lesser i'd expect to be a fair bit more uniform brown

This isn't a bad article: -
http://www.zestforbirds.co.za/sandplover.html

And finally, columbinus race Greater Sands are by far the commonest sandplover on the southern Red Sea coast.

Cheers and good birding

Rich

Sandplovers..what a headache to ID.

I wouldn't like to give an ID based on any of the shots, but several things I will say

1) I saw good numbers of both Greater and Lesser Sand Plover in Jeddah back in 1996/7, though Greater were the commoner...just across the Red Sea from Egypt. SO I don't think we can base the ID solely on which is commonest in the area.

2) Most Greaters that I saw were 'columbinus' and of course they are shorter-billed than 'crassirostris' and 'lescheunetti', but even so their bills are still usually one-third bigger than 'atifrons' Mongolian/Lesser Sands. The bird in the pick look to have quite short bills in the flight shots, but when compared with the Kentish Plover in the shots they seem quite long.

3) According to 'Shorebirds', all Greaters show toes extending beyond the tail. In my experience this is usually the case (and I am sure you can find plenty of photos to show this), while in Lessers the toes sometimes project a little beyond the tail, they usually don't. In your pick nearly all birds seem to show no projection, with perhaps two showing a little projection...however as CAU says this is not always a useful ID point as it is often unclear as the birds twist and turn.

4) Leg color. This is often sited as a clincher, but I have some experience of Lessers showing yellow-green legs, though I admit most show black legs and it seems all the birds in the pics have pale legs which is good for Greater. Difficult to judge leg-length, but doesn't look overly long, but I guess columbinus' Greaters aren't as long-legged as the nominate race and 'crassirostris'.

5) Wingbar. Although this is usually more prominent on Greaters, Lessers can show as much white on the wing. I wonder if the white stands out more due to the light and quality of the pics(no offense meant here) or is that how it really appeared?.

6)Tail. Greater usually shows more white at the sides of the rump and tail than Lesser. Again these pics appear to show a lot of white in the outer tail feathers and at the sides of the rump, but is it just a photographic artefact?

So in conclusion...Greater seems more likely to me,but I guess Lesser can't be completely ruled out for what it is worth.

Cheers

Sean

plovers in egypt

lostinjapan said:

Sandplovers..what a headache to ID.
SNIP
1) I saw good numbers of both Greater and Lesser Sand Plover in Jeddah back in 1996/7, though Greater were the commoner...just across the Red Sea from Egypt. SO I don't think we can base the ID solely on which is commonest in the area.

4) Leg color. This is often sited as a clincher, but I have some experience of Lessers showing yellow-green legs, though I admit most show black legs and it seems all the birds in the pics have pale legs which is good for Greater. Difficult to judge leg-length, but doesn't look overly long, but I guess columbinus' Greaters aren't as long-legged as the nominate race and 'crassirostris'.

So in conclusion...Greater seems more likely to me,but I guess Lesser can't be completely ruled out for what it is worth.

Cheers

Sean

UNSNIP

Click to expand...

without going into much detail i have two remarks; Mongolian and Lesser Sand are very rare in Egypt and leg color is variable in all three species and cannot be used as a "shortcut" to seperate one from the other.
The bill structure of the two birds in pic 1 is typical for Greater Sand.

cheers, pim

S'funny that I started the thread to confirm the Kentish and Chch and end up with a debate on the sand plovers.

I'll just add a link to this thread from my blogs trip report.

Thanks to all for the discussion.

Bill shape is really the most reliable (only?) way to separate Greater Sandplover from Lesser/Mongolian in winter plumage. Other features like leg colour and wingbar shape either overlap or are open to interpretation. The bills on these birds are fairly long and taper smoothly to a spiky tip, which is the classic shape for columbinus Greater Sandplover. On Lesser, the bill would be shorter and blunter tipped, with a blob-like swelling near the tip. A firm vote for Greater.

Greaters for me too; bill shape, wingbar shape on primaries and tail pattern.

Some of the birds in flight do look to have slight projection of feet beyond tail too.

Sean

nice link Richard.