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Curlew sp. at Minsmere (4 Viewers)

Here is some info from the birds in russia bird group.
Valery

What do you know about the authenticity of the 27
Slender-billed Curlews recorded in the Lebyazhy
Islands, Ukraine, in autumn 2001. Are they reliable
sightings? Can I quote them or are the reports
unsubstantiated?

Very best wishes

LEE G R EVANS
UK400 Club, Rare Birds Magazine & Ornithological
Consultancy


Dear Lee and all,

The records from the Crimea are definitely
interesting. I don't know whether they have been
accepted by (or even submitted to) the Ukrainian
records committee. At any rate, they come from an area
which has received special attention for some time
because of regular occurrence of Slender-billed
Curlews. Birdlife's Slender-billed Curlew Database
probably contains the most complete picture, but it is
instructive to glance at the data (from the
Database) in Birdlife's 'European Bird Populations.
Estimates and trends', published in 2000. For the
period 1990-1999 alone the following records
(again, not clear to what extent they have been
authenticated) per country are listed:
Greece: 15 records, 35 birds
Italy: 6 records, 25 birds
Ukraine: 12 records, 18 birds
Hungary: 7 records, 15 birds
Bulgaria: 5 records, 5-7 birds
Albania: 1 record, 1 bird
France: ibidem
Romania: ibidem
Russia: ibidem
Turkey: ibidem
Dimitar Nankinov has regularly written about
Slender-billed Curlews in
Bulgaria (especially Atanasov Lake). Some of his
(sometimes maybe overly optimistic) accounts,
published in the Ukrainian journal Berkut, can be read
at:
http://www.geocities.com/berkut_ua/selected/curlew.htm(in
English)
http://www.geocities.com/berkut_ua/SUM/numenius.htm
(in German)
Maybe some Bulgarian or Ukrainian colleagues on this
list could provide us with more recent information.

All the best,

Geert Groot Koerkamp

From: "Valery N. Moseykin" <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:23:22 +0400
Subject: Re: [BirdsinRussia] Fwd: [MEBirdNet]
Slender-billed Curlew Website Ukraine

I participated in the Russian program of search
Slender-billed Curlew. I agree with opinion prof.
Tomkovich, Dr. Morozov and Dr. Koblik that is
necessary with the big care correctly Slender-billed
Curlew to identify. Even the skilled ornithologist can
confuse in a field Slender-billed Curlew
c some individuals N.arquata orientalis (light, have
white wing linings and sometimes - a spotted on one
side) and N.p.alboaxillaris (light and some
individuals have no strips (bar) on a head).
May be Slender-billed Curlew does not exist as
species, but only a hybrid - steppe subspecies
N.a.orientalis + N.p.alboaxillaris???
In 2001 in steppe an oasis of the kazakhstan desert we
have found mixed Curlew nesting a colony
(N.a.orientalis and N.p.alboaxillaris). Some
individuals were actually indistinguishable (in field
conditionsfrom) from Slender-billed Curlew.
I remind, that old russian ornithologist Zarudny
described a find nesting pair N.arquata + N.
tenuirostris (!!!).
Russian collector Ushakov was unique who nests
Slender-billed Curlew found. Also Uchakov which took
away eggs and shot Slender-billed Curlew, writes
that in found nest not was bird. Ushakov has extracted
Slender-billed Curlew when this bird worried nearby
from nest. However beside flied N.arquata (!) also.

Best regards,

Valery Moseykin (Russia)
 
Well, having been to see the bird today I was left underwhelmed, but I want see either way as to what I thought the id could be as I really don't think I know anywhere near enough to either dismiss or agree that the bird is a Slender-billed Curlew, though an obvious feature we noted was the bill seemed to have a broad bill base, near identical to the accompanying Curlew.

The main news was that while we watched it today 2 of us noticed it 'dropped some droppings'! So once the bird flew to another field we went in and successfully relocated the droppings, definitley from the bird in question, exact area and still fresh. We have now sent this off to, hopefully, Birdlife and maybe we will find out the true identity of this bird for sure at some point!

All the best

James Eaton
 
OK OK - typically, the more I think and research, the more confusing it becomes...
I was happy to sit this one out with the doubters because...after all Curlews are variable and Slender-billed Curlews might be extinct put those to facts together and you can only draw one conclusion...

But having spent the early evening with the person who watched it with me on Sunday watching video of Slender-billed Curlew in Morocco - i`m now starting to be convinced it might actually be one! - the bird didn`t haf look similar...OK plumage was not identical because its certainly not an adult male but structure, bill length and curvature (even if a little too thick) feeding action & that beady eyed slightly capped look it had were all bang on...anyone else viewed any video footage and come to the same conclusion???
`Cos i`m more confused than ever now ;)
 
I think imentioned earlier that Ushakov's records were slightly unusual in that he watched supposed SBCs but some of his collected eggs were E. Curlew

anyone know of any photos of arquata x alboaxilaris on the net?.....or anyone ever been to that region get scanning your curlew/whimbrel pix!

check out BB 95 (7) for great info on Ushakov's expeditions

PS.....wonder what these things would call like?
 
James Eaton said:
The main news was that while we watched it today 2 of us noticed it 'dropped some droppings'! So once the bird flew to another field we went in and successfully relocated the droppings, definitley from the bird in question, exact area and still fresh.
James Eaton

Always knew you and the boys would end up shovelling sh*t

look forward to reading about your latest trip

come on you RAMS!

atb
Tim
 
A few questions: :h?:

1) If hybrid birds are indistinguishable how do they know they were hybrids? was genetic testing done?

2)If this is the case are we looking at another Cox sandpiper? Has genuine evidence of SBC being a true species ever been produced?

3)If, as has been mentioned on here several times, N.a.Orientalis is larger than EC how can it be confused with SBC?

Maybe this hybrid theory is pure tosh and what really happens is SBC lays it's eggs in another birds nest (like Cuckoos) ;)
 
A good point that I totally missed!! Cheers Tim.

But presuming they didn't see the bird hatch can they be truely sure??? Have waders ever fostered others offspring when they have lost thier own? I know it happens in other species! Grasping at straws a bit with this one.
 
I remember a few years ago an article in Birding World showing a Ringed Plover fostering a Shore Lark chick, or visa versa. Not sure if this would happen with a curlew sp. though!
 
Hi Ashley
With regards to waders fostering others offspring.
On my local patch where LRP successfully rear between 4-6 broods each year. A local photographer has taken a pic of an adult LRP attempting to brood a very young lapwing chick.The chick was as big as the LRP.

All the best Roger
 
Well, I finally saw the thing today. I went in open-minded (if not empty-headed), but half expecting to come away thinking it was a Eurasian Curlew. Must say that, to my mind, Paul Hackett's videograbs represent the bird very faithfully indeed. They are absolutely the impression I got today.

I was pleasantly surprised. I must say I think the bird's got a lot going for it. I can only judge by what I've read, though, since I don't have any field experience. Despite all the positive points, there were things about the plumage that I couldn't altogether reconcile with what I'd read. Also I still think the bill is too thick - and why is it so extensively pinkish (at least the basal two thirds - the distal portion was muddy); are there precedents for that in SBC? It could well be one, but I still came away not entirely convinced.

I think the people who went away happiest were the ones who took the view "It's obviously not a Whimbrel and it doesn't look at all like the Curlews, so it must be a Slender-billed." Nice when it's as simple as that! I would dearly like them to be right, though.
 
Last edited:
Ashley beolens said:
Ben and Reader, are you 100% sure you saw the right bird?

Hi Ashley

I haven't seen the bird nor will I probably go to see it. I have seen one in Greece that IMHO fits the bill (pardon the pun) perfectly. All I have seen of the Minsmere bird is the photos and what reports there are. I am not impressed by any of the photos taken nor am I impressed by the varying reports. Are you looking at the right bird, is it this bird, is it that bird, could it be a hybrid, see what I mean.

There isn't enough confidence in this bird and too many varying opinions.

Remember, not every one is convinced of the Northumberland bird so imagine what is going to happen to the Minsmere one.

The only way you are going to find out for certain is if it dies on the spot or is shot. Then we can do a DNA analysis, and neither of those actions are going to happen.

I noticed on RBA the other day that if ever anyone spots the bird defecating or dropping a feather then they must report it straight away and stay at the spot so that it can be correctly pointed out. If that happens will that be enough? What do you guys think?
 
Reader said:
Hi Ashley

I haven't seen the bird nor will I probably go to see it. I have seen one in Greece



You keep refering to "your claim" OF ONE IN Greece how do we know this was one you cant compare one unconfirmed id against the other , what happpens if this one is one , your Greek claim then cant be!!!!!!!!
 
Comparisons to the Northumberland SBC

There have been quite a few mentions of the Druridge Bay SBC. Just like to remind people on how different this bird was!

http://www.birdguides.com/birdnews/article.asp?a=35

The only thing in common as far as I can see is the debate that follows.

Now firmly in the EC camp.

Jon
 
Swift said:
Reader said:
Hi Ashley

I haven't seen the bird nor will I probably go to see it. I have seen one in Greece

You keep refering to "your claim" OF ONE IN Greece how do we know this was one you cant compare one unconfirmed id against the other , what happpens if this one is one , your Greek claim then cant be!!!!!!!!

I agree and I never claim to be able to do that. I can never prove that I have seen one all I can do is relate my field notes that I had on the day. I did this with Birdlife International (I think it was that body) and whilst they agreed that it could never be accepted they were more than happy with my description. They rang me at home and questioned me at length about all sorts of things. They agreed that the area I saw the bird in was a good possibility and that they were going to mark that area as a likely place to find one, based on my report.

So there you have it and I can only base what I saw with my bird against what is being reported with the Minsmere bird. I have based my reasoning on not only what I have seen but also the literature on SBC's doesn't really support the Minsmere bird as being a certainty for SBC.
 
Steve said:
Hi Reader RE: your last sentence See post#244

Sorry Steve but you have confused me. What has my last sentence got to do with Jasonbirders reply (message 244)

I was reffering to the bird defecating or dropping a feather, none of which Jason mentioned in that reply of his.
 
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