Odd looking Buteo buteo....? (1 Viewer)

KenM · Oct 17, 2016

Found this today on Chingford Plain, N.E.London...for some it might be par for the course, however I've certainly not seen a bird with quite as rufous..a tail and tarsi, with an almost black head before? Perhaps it's just the general morphology for this taxa, and nothing distinctly odd?

Cheers

Andy Adcock · Oct 17, 2016

Weird looking thing Ken but I think it's just an odd Buzzard, nice bird though.

Andy

tconzemi · Oct 17, 2016

maybe you should check for Buteos species kept by falconers, it really looks weird

P.Sunesen · Oct 17, 2016

I don't think it's that odd.

Perhaps a bird of Northeastern origin. The bird linked to here is a type (with or without a reddish tone to the tail, often only on the upperside) seen quite often in Denmark, but perhaps rather as a migrant than a breeding bird.

Peter

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=43506

tconzemi · Oct 17, 2016

P.Sunesen said:
I don't think it's that odd.

Perhaps a bird of Northeastern origin. The bird linked to here is a type (with or without a reddish tone to the tail, often only on the upperside) seen quite often in Denmark, but perhaps rather as a migrant than a breeding bird.

Peter

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=43506

very much the same indeed

Andy Adcock · Oct 17, 2016

P.Sunesen said:
I don't think it's that odd.

Perhaps a bird of Northeastern origin. The bird linked to here is a type (with or without a reddish tone to the tail, often only on the upperside) seen quite often in Denmark, but perhaps rather as a migrant than a breeding bird.

Peter

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=43506

I say odd in the local sense, it's nothing like what we see here in the UK, black head and red tail?

I see birds when I'm in Russia that show what Dick Forsman says is mixed heritage involving vulpinus but I've never seen one with a black hood.

Andy

dantheman · Oct 17, 2016

Probably just a Siberian Buzzard then ... ish.

Sangahyando · Oct 17, 2016

tconzemi said:
maybe you should check for Buteos species kept by falconers, it really looks weird

While we're at it, do you know if wild CBs have interbred with escaped Red-tailed Hawks or other falconer species?

dantheman · Oct 17, 2016

Sangahyando said:
While we're at it, do you know if wild CBs have interbred with escaped Red-tailed Hawks or other falconer species?

Seem to remember a spate of probable hybrids being posted on here somewhere with a RT Hawk that had been at large in Norfolk, UK (or thereabouts) a few years back.

P.Sunesen · Oct 17, 2016

andyadcock said:
I say odd in the local sense, it's nothing like what we see here in the UK, black head and red tail?

I see birds when I'm in Russia that show what Dick Forsman says is mixed heritage involving vulpinus but I've never seen one with a black hood.

Andy

I don't think the head is truly black, but rather dark brown.
The head/neck and upper breast seem to be in shadow - the photograph isn't very detailed. Likewise I doubt that the sunlit upperside of the tail is that red. Actually I think it's very close to the Common Buzzard linked to in my previous post.

KenM · Oct 18, 2016

P.Sunesen said:
I don't think the head is truly black, but rather dark brown.
The head/neck and upper breast seem to be in shadow - the photograph isn't very detailed. Likewise I doubt that the sunlit upperside of the tail is that red. Actually I think it's very close to the Common Buzzard linked to in my previous post.

Peter it was the rufous on the upper-tail...on the outward spiral that prompted me to unleash the camera....dare I say, that through the bins the tail looked somewhat warmer than the image might suggest. If the head wasn't black? it was certainly a dark chocolate, It's good to know that others are of the same opinion that it wasn't..."yer typical" Common Buzzard.

Cheers

stevethehydra · Oct 18, 2016

dantheman said:
Seem to remember a spate of probable hybrids being posted on here somewhere with a RT Hawk that had been at large in Norfolk, UK (or thereabouts) a few years back.

I've seen photos on Flickr (wish I'd bookmarked them, they don't seem to be in Dave Appleton's hybrid birds group) of hybrids between Common Buzzard and Harris Hawk, IIRC somewhere in the West Country. Red-tailed is much closer genetically (and hybrids would be a lot harder to distinguish from just "odd" CB), so I'm almost sure it has happened...

Actually I wonder if CB x RT hybrids would have some dominance over pure CB, Red-tailed being a heavier/stronger and more predatory bird... or maybe those traits would make them more likely to get shot by farmers/gamekeepers??

This bird reminds me a little of Jackal Buzzard, but I'd imagine not many of those are kept (far fewer than Red-tailed or Harris anyway) and odds of one escaping and not being spotted/recaptured before hybridising with a Common are pretty low...

RafaelMatias · Oct 18, 2016

stevethehydra said:
I've seen photos on Flickr (wish I'd bookmarked them, they don't seem to be in Dave Appleton's hybrid birds group) of hybrids between Common Buzzard and Harris Hawk, IIRC somewhere in the West Country.

Here you go: hybrid on flickr

P.Sunesen · Oct 18, 2016

KenM said:
Peter it was the rufous on the upper-tail...on the outward spiral that prompted me to unleash the camera....dare I say, that through the bins the tail looked somewhat warmer than the image might suggest. If the head wasn't black? it was certainly a dark chocolate, It's good to know that others are of the same opinion that it wasn't..."yer typical" Common Buzzard.

Cheers

Yes, the seemingly very distinct black subterminal tail-band does seem odd, and hints at Red-tailed Hawk, so perhaps there's more meat to the hybrid soup this time?

https://www.google.dk/search?q=red-...UIBygB&biw=1024&bih=672#imgrc=HAaSucmIrL3qiM:

Another (perhaps more likely) theory could be a Buzzard from the hybrid zone between vulpinus (which it doesn't quite match) and the nominate. Wouldn't be surprising in a year when prolonged easterlies may have caused this year to be a record one when it comes to passerine migrants of eastern origin.

Anyway, congratulations with your exciting sighting

Peter

KenM · Oct 18, 2016

Interesting comments so far! Having seen many RTHawks in the States imo the structure of the Chingford Plain bird was more Buteo buteo, RTH being a much heavier seemingly broader winged taxa. However as has been commented on, the prospect (likelihood?) of this individual being of Easterly origin is real food for thought. The immediate area is no stranger to birds of an Eastern origin...indeed bit of a hot spot. It would be of interest if any other Easterly Buteos are mooted during this " Sibe " period that we are currently enjoying.

KenM · Oct 18, 2016

FWIW having trawled the net for Common Buzzard....I could not find anything remotely like this. I'm unsure as to what extent the relevance of the rufous to the upper-tail for CB might be, as this could be an occasional feature (recessive gene?).

However I could not find any CB showing a two colour gradation from head/neck and breast (without a pale divide on the chest) through the entire under-parts to the ''rufous'' tarsi.

Once again many thanks to Peter Sunesen for the link in post 4 showing a ''comparative bird'', with a comment by D.Forsman that, the bird shown had vulpinus traits.

If the Chingford Plain bird (which was perhaps a more ''striking'' example?) was anything to compare against, then should this occurrence/record be taken any further?

Here is another shot that I believe shows that the head, neck and breast are indeed very dark, and not the result of heavy shadow.

Cheers to all who have contributed.

stevethehydra · Oct 18, 2016

RafaelMatias said:
Here you go: hybrid on flickr

Thanks! That looks very much like the photos I remember, but I think is probably a different individual. I did a bit of googling and found this old thread: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=184222 on which the linked photos are no longer available but must have been the ones I saw from the discussion.

I also found this YouTube video which is probably the same bird: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2DiqZcb8Jc

and a PDF with photos about a captive bred CB x Harris: https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...DYS7cG6UTYt6CFZmQ&sig2=VLEZUNLoonMLgRdJtVzn0A

Of course from these pics/videos Ken's bird doesn't look like these hybrids, despite the dark-and-rufous combination being somewhat similar to an adult pure Harris Hawk...

Also here for comparison is a possible CB x Red-Tailed: http://birdhybrids.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/red-tailed-hawk-x-common-buzzard.html

dantheman · Oct 19, 2016

Thread on RT Hawk in Norfolk I was on about (it then links to some hybrid threads), 2009, so a little while back;

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=144079

KenM · Oct 19, 2016

dantheman said:
Thread on RT Hawk in Norfolk I was on about (it then links to some hybrid threads), 2009, so a little while back;

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=144079

Thanks Dan, clearly to be considered. However the alternative option is the one that I would ''prefer'' to follow...ie a bird of Eastern origin :eek!:

As I understand it ''the moulting strategy'' of this individual might be the key, regarding it being either a short, or long distance migrant, If this can be determined from these images it would certainly help matters...anybody?

A few more shots....Cheers

KenM · Nov 18, 2016

Surprisingly...the bird is still present today at the same location! Thus I have to assume that Buteo buteo can carry a recessive gene...or It's a transient bird from NE.Europe that has decided to overwinter? Some more images interacting with Crow to give a size comparison.

Odd looking Buteo buteo....? (1 Viewer)

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