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Northern Bullfinch Identification (1 Viewer)

Mike Pennington said:
Hi Dimitris,

Any trumpeter Bullfinches in Greece yet? They've reached Bulgaria.
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Hi Mike,

Don't know if they have reached.But I have heard of some odd sightings in unusual settings(seaside sightings for example),don't know if they are northern though(the Greek ornithological site can be quite crappy at times I'll check it now).Any chance of getting waxies this far south?
 
check theese tooters from eastern Transilvania. Shots made by BF member Joska. What do you think of that additional white spot near the shoulder??? In Romania males seem to dominate. Is this the case in Britain, too?
Lou
 

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lou salomon said:
check theese tooters from eastern Transilvania. Shots made by BF member Joska. What do you think of that additional white spot near the shoulder??? In Romania males seem to dominate. Is this the case in Britain, too?
Lou
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Hi Lou,

It is worth remembering that Bullfinches have white tips to the median coverts as well as the greater coverts but these are nearly always covered by the scapulars and mantle feathers in most postures. I assume that this is what is showing in these birds, but it is difficult to say from the photos.

Strange that males dominate in Romania. In 1994, males dominated in Shetland but the further south you went there were more females, even in Orkney, the next group of islands. In Shetland in 2004, females dominate (60% of all sightings, pretty consistent from site to site and date to date). Don't have enough data in sex ratios elsewhere to comment, but would welcome any figures.
 
Mike Pennington said:
In Shetland in 2004, females dominate (60% of all sightings, pretty consistent from site to site and date to date). Don't have enough data in sex ratios elsewhere to comment, but would welcome any figures.
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This is interesting as the opposite seems to be the case in Cumbria. Out of the 24 records I am aware of in the county so far, 22 of them have been males with only 2 records of females.

Regards
Tristan
 
wintibird said:
Last week, the first northern Bullfinch was heard in Switzerland. As it seems that they are not so easily to identify, here are some examples of the call:

http://ddkkk.1g.fi/pyrpyr/pyrpyr.htm

These were recorded in the republic Komi in the Russian Federation.

André
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You can hear calls of 'trumpet/toot' Bullfinches at these sites

http://www.xs4all.nl/~lantshr/opname.html

http://www.pennington.charitydays.co.uk/latestbirds.htm

Note that mine is 1 Mb as I haven't worked out how to make it shorter yet!!

I think it is pretty clear that they are the same.

Birds making this call have been heard in the breeding season in eastern Finland and around the White Sea, suggesting that they may not come from as far east as Komi (which is pretty close to the Urals).

Perhaps, the stay in western Europe on occasions as 2 wre heard making this call in southern Germany in June this year (but some tooting birds may have made it to western Europe in autumn 2003).
 
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Hi

I have been spending a bit of time looking through images of male pileata and Northern types. I am not convinced white in front of the legs is a good feature for seperating Northern (or Eastern) forms from pileata as the latter seem to show this. However it does appear that Northern forms may have a straighter cut off between white and red/pink in front of the legs, whereas pileata appears to show more red/pink down the flanks giving a more 'curved' cut off between white and red/pink.

Hmmmm I hope this makes sense!

Any thoughts?

Regards
Tristan
 
Tristan R said:
Hi

I have been spending a bit of time looking through images of male pileata and Northern types. I am not convinced white in front of the legs is a good feature for seperating Northern (or Eastern) forms from pileata as the latter seem to show this. However it does appear that Northern forms may have a straighter cut off between white and red/pink in front of the legs, whereas pileata appears to show more red/pink down the flanks giving a more 'curved' cut off between white and red/pink.

Hmmmm I hope this makes sense!

Any thoughts?

Regards
Tristan
Click to expand...

Hi Tristan,

I would agree it is not a good feature as there is so much variation. Indeed, several people have suggested the opposite to me i.e. Northerns have more white on the flanks! What I think makes the white of Northern look more extemsive/more obvious (as seems to be the case in the field) is a sharper divisoin between the two, often emphasised by a stronger color on the belly, where pileata tends to fade out a bit. Like all the other features though, it is a mtter of degrees and not definitive.
 
To revive this interesting topic, there is a short piece in the most recent edition of the Danish magazine 'fugle og natur' that suggests the 2004 influx could be attributed to the Caucasus race P. p. rossikowi. Apparently Russian ornithologists have said that this race is known to produce the 'trumpet' call, and the race is also known to migrate in a north-westerly direction. The article reports that the autumn snows came a month earlier than usual in the Caucasus mountains and parts of turkey in 2004, and it is suggested that this could have sparked the Bullfinch invasion into Northern and Western Europe in autumn 2004.

Cheers,

Stuart
 
DJ Sideboard said:
Apparently Scandinavia too is seeing large numbers of big, oddly calling Bullfinchs at the moment. An origin further east then 'normal Northern Bullfinchs' has been postulated, so we may be seeing something special here.
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I was in southern Sweden two days ago. I went for a walk with a local ornithologist around Vaxjo which is fairly south. there did seem to be two "races" of bullfinches around. My guide pointed out the differing calls. He was of the opinion that some were of eastern origin. He said that speculation suggested Kazakhstan! That is Pyrrhula pyrrhula rossikowi I think.

Keith
 
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Unusual calls of Bullfinches (Pyrrhula pyrrhula)

I got following information from Rico Kuehn:


I am almost sure, that in West Europe now really (together with local and Eastern-European) the Bullfinches of the Caucasian subspecies Pyrrhula pyrrhula rossikowi can be observed.
Judging on received photos, males are very bright, red colour is spread practically up to vent. Our Bullfinches are paler. By voice there are also distinctions from Eastern-European Bullfinches. Represented calls are more jerky, they are of another tonality, less soft and less minor, than in our "guys". That was confirmed independently by several specialists during hearing these recording. I don't know Caucasian subspecies of the Bullfinches "in face" very well, I saw them a couple of times in the Caucasian Nature Reserve, therefore this assumption should be confirmed by other more experienced specialists. It is written that this subspecies undertakes only vertical nomadic movements. I can guess only that powerful snowfalls in Turkey had a certain influence on this invasion, where this subspecies inhabits the southern coast of the Black Sea. I have heard from TV, that in the Northern Caucasia snow cover has appeared by 1 month earllier that it should be. What does it mean - our stereotype of
thinking.: if Bullfinches, means they should be from N or E, but in fact they are - from South-East !

Oleg Boroodin, Ulyanovsk, Russia
 
Kenneth62 said:
I got following information from Rico Kuehn:


I am almost sure, that in West Europe now really (together with local and Eastern-European) the Bullfinches of the Caucasian subspecies Pyrrhula pyrrhula rossikowi can be observed.
Judging on received photos, males are very bright, red colour is spread practically up to vent. Our Bullfinches are paler. By voice there are also distinctions from Eastern-European Bullfinches. Represented calls are more jerky, they are of another tonality, less soft and less minor, than in our "guys". That was confirmed independently by several specialists during hearing these recording. I don't know Caucasian subspecies of the Bullfinches "in face" very well, I saw them a couple of times in the Caucasian Nature Reserve, therefore this assumption should be confirmed by other more experienced specialists. It is written that this subspecies undertakes only vertical nomadic movements. I can guess only that powerful snowfalls in Turkey had a certain influence on this invasion, where this subspecies inhabits the southern coast of the Black Sea. I have heard from TV, that in the Northern Caucasia snow cover has appeared by 1 month earllier that it should be. What does it mean - our stereotype of
thinking.: if Bullfinches, means they should be from N or E, but in fact they are - from South-East !

Oleg Boroodin, Ulyanovsk, Russia
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I am amazed that this is still doing the rounds and is getting into print.

A few points.

If they came from the Caucasus, how come they appeared in Finland first, then Sweden, Norway, Denmark etc., only reaching Romania several weeks after they got to Scandinavia and barely reaching Bulgaria.

I have not heard rossikowski calls yet, but have been told that they do have trumpter calls. But so do birds in northern European Russia. The most famous recording on the internet comes from Komi, but they do appear to have this call as far west as Karelia.

Vadim Ivushkin, by all accounts the expert on Bullfinches in Russia, supports the view that 'trumpeters' come from European Russia and also dismisses the Caucasian origin.

Yes, we should be open to ideas, but we should not ignore the fact that there are better explanations here than the improbable. What next, an invasion of Great Rosefinches?
 
Thanks for reminding me, Tom. That invasion really was one of the highlights of the year (Brown Shrike notwithstanding ;) ) up here - literally hundreds of ginormous hooting finches all over Shetland. Great to see, and as 'the birder' in the office I ended up being given several cat-corpses - so one day I'll have a big fat stuffed Bullfinch sitting on the shelf in front of my New Naturalists to remind me of the event.

ce
 
Hi Zac,

Welcome to Birdforum, I hope you really enjoy yourself here.

An old thread on Northern Bullfinches was an interesting entry choice for a young birder from Preston!!

Regards,

Stephen.
 
Stephen Dunstan said:
An old thread on Northern Bullfinches was an interesting entry choice for a young birder from Preston!!



QUOTE]
yes, thanks for the warm welcome Stephan, this is a strange entry choice I know but I was looking on google for some ID links for this bird and the forum linkcame up...

Zac
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