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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

cheap scopes (1 Viewer)

Chin up Crumbucket, it's not as bad as all that - it's worse.

Wait, just you wait. You have still to experience "quality control" (boy is that an oxymoron in regard to low to mid cost spotting scopes) issues.

However, for people who wear eyeglasses ER (eyerelief) is the critical, number one optical criteria - at least it is for me. If an optical instrument (spotting scope, binoculars, telescope, riflescope, etc...) does not have acceptable eyerelief, then it becomes far less comfortable, far more difficult and far less rewarding to use - for me.
I find 20mm is ideal for me using spotting scopes (19mm for binoculars). Too much ER can also be a bit of a pain in the lower posterior, particularly with binoculars that you would like to position quickly.

As Kevin Purcell pointed out, eyepiece (EP) flexibility is one of the best features of the Pentax PF-65ED. Because it accepts most 1.25" telescopic EPs and because there are many 1.25" telescopic EPs with 20mm of ER - that gives you a large selection of available EP's for use with eyeglasses. On the other hand; Kowa, Zeiss, Swarovski, Lecia and Nikon (or Alpen) - each have very, very few interchangable EPs with 20mm of ER.

Unfortunately, new 20mm ER EP's tend to be a bit pricey. Also they tend to mainly (Vixen NLV is an exception) come with very wide apparent field of view (AFOV). Baader Hyperion ($120) and Orion Stratus ($135) both have very good reputations for their "value" (high quality/moderate cost). Televue Radian ($210-$250), Vixen WLV ($160-$290) and Pentax WX ($350-$400) offer higher quality, but cost more. Each series offers five to eight EP's -all with 20mm of ER. So you can see there are a lot of possible EP combinations for the Pentax PF-65ED. Most zooms loose ER and drop below 20mm ER by 30x, there are a few exceptions - Celestron Explorer II Zoom ($70+/-) is a bit better, but it's not the highest quality (resolution) zoom out there.

In regard to the spotting scope body, unfortunately, I find an angled body to be easier to approach with my eyeglasses then a straight body. Unfortunate, because angled bodies are more expensive then straight bodies. Remember, eyeglasses = more $$$ and more frustration when combined with spotting scopes!

Anyway good luck. Looking through the spotting scope before you purchase is the best way to avoid disappointment. Obviously, this is critical if you are looking to purchase a used scope. If you decide to purchase new, return it, if it disappoints - in any way.
 
Update: Found an Alpen 20-60x80, model 788 on eBay and won for $242.50 shipped. I decided it was worth a try after reading a review of it at birdwatching.com. I've been pleased with my initial views through the scope. It will focus in and out far enough that I'm able to use it without my thick glasses, so that's a plus. I briefly tried it with my glasses on, and was disappointed, but will give that a further try soon. I especially like the smooth and precise focusing mechanism. It seems extremely clear and sharp at 20, and pretty good at 60 too. I think I'm quite happy with it for the price I paid.

Saw a curious roughly vertical and regular banding pattern of leaves on a tree when out of focus, but which disappeared completely when in focus. If anyone knows what that is, please speak! It reminded me of the aperture shape distortion one finds on film cameras when taking a picture of out of focus, yet highly contrasted scenes, for example, out-of-focus headlights on a car at night from far away. But in the form of many vertical and regular bands. Maybe that's a consequence of a lens coating? Anyway, didn't seem to hurt anything.

Will give a more thorough review in the next week or so. If anyone wants me to do a particular test, please let me know, and I'll try to do it.

I can already see that I need a sturdier tripod.
 
Further observations. First, I haven't seen the banding pattern again. Must have been looking through the screen door! :)

Eye relief is great with my glasses at 20x, barely possible at about 45x, and OK at 60x.

Image quality seems great (with a big caveat, see below) at 20x, comparable to my Canon IS 10x30 binocs. At 60x, there is a lot of contrast loss (dark areas are purple), some fringing, but still pretty sharp. Not having other scopes to look through, that is only my very subjective opinion.

Love the focusing mechanism.

Now the caveat. I'm seeing a sharp dislocated ghost image if my eyeball gets off axis at ALL at 60x, but it is possible to see it at any magnification. I don't know if that is common to all scopes. It is not much of an issue at 20x, but makes it so that you cannot move your eyeball to look at the edges of the FOV at all at 60x, and even just looking at dead center is difficult (can't really keep my head still enough).

Still, this may be about as good as I can do for the budget I have. May continue to look for a used Sandpiper or might get lucky and find an affordable used Pentax.

Thank you all for your help.
 
Crumbucket:

First: Congradulations on your Alpen, they have a reputation for making very good inexpensive/moderately priced spotting scopes and binoculars.

Second: Sounds like inapropriate internal reflections, perhaps due to your price point? ASAP (Monday am), call Alpen 1-877-987-8370 (toll free) or 1-909-987-8770 9:00am - 5:00pm (They are in California). Describe the issue and ask them what is causing the problem? Is the problem a defect? Should the scope be returned? Do not wait to do this! Then when armed with the manufacturer's information call the seller and find out if he/she accepts returns for replacements/refunds? The seller might tell you that you have to return the scope to Alpen for replacement? Do not wait. Do this Monday am. Alpen might tell you that this happens on inexpensive lines of scopes, say when you look toward the sun? (Just a for example.) If it's a defect Alpen will tell you; they want their customers to be happy.

Good luck.
 
I, too, am glad you found a scope that you are relatively happy with. I have no experience with the Alpen line of scopes but have heard good things about their high end binoculars.
 
Would like to post an update. Have had the scope to Glacier NP and a refuge here in Montana called Freezeout Lake.

Overall, still satisfied for the price I paid. I still wonder if a Sandpiper might be better. I have become more used to the 60x and am not having trouble keeping my eyeball on axis. And while I still notice that the contrast is low at 60x, and fringes when my eye drifts too far off axis, it is sharp. I have not noticed the ghosting in actual use, just when I'm in my dark living room looking out on the bright yard. I'm wondering if my glasses have something to do with that.
 
Noticing a few more things now. Did my best to give it a star test. It seemed to fail that pretty badly. I used this as my guide:

http://www.spacealberta.com/equipment/refractor/startest.htm

First star test was actually a sun glimmer off a Ford a few hundred meters away. At 60x, depending on whether I was over- or under-focused, I got a large yellow-green, or a large purple fringe around the star. I've noticed that at 60x before, but didn't know how to explain it properly. One has to focus very precisely to eliminate the fringes, and they collapse to undetectable levels at perfect focus.

Also, I don't even know what to call the other effect I saw. It was similar to Coma, but it wasn't like the Coma described in the link above. When under-focused, it was like an extreme version of Coma, where the center of the rings was displaced so far as to be outside the disk. When over-focused, the center of the Coma-like effect had reversed sides to an equal degree, unlike in the above link where it shows Coma being in the same place regardless of over- or under-focus. I'm tempted to think that it's an internal reflection of a Coma affect that through some strange voodoo is not normally detectable? Henry Link would surely know better than me.

I performed the same test last night on a real star. Same things, just less bright. Still, I could see Jupiter, a few of its rings, and the four big moons quite clearly when properly focused.

I'm thinking they did some strange things to keep this scope so cheap, and to still have it be sharp at 60x. My biggest complaint is that although the images are sharp at 60x, the contrast is low, and contrasty objects that are too close or too far out of the focal area do the colored fringe thing.
 
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