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Ruddy Duck cull continuing (1 Viewer)

Adam W said:
Fair point Jos but is there actually a need to or would it be right to wait until we have solid evidence(we might already I dont know) that this is a big problem by which time it could be too late?
Is it not better to see that there is at least the obvious potential for a problem which I'm sure we'd all agree there is so then not take the risk of it becoming a problem?
As I've said before prevetion is better than cure especially if its too late for the cure to work.

While there may not be hard evidence as such that British Ruddies are actually causing a significant problem with Spanish white Headed Ducks at present I dont think anyone can deny the fact that Ruddies will breed with White Heads(hybrids that exist must proove that?) and nobody can deny that British Ruddies could get to Spain even if there isnt proof that they have yet though wouldnt the hybrids be proof of that too?
So in my opinion at least there's more than enough potential for a problem that it makes sense to act now instead of living to regret not acting just for the sake of the poor Ruddies that shouldnt be here anyway.
Click to expand...

I'm sure Jos will reply to you, Adam, but your post is a good example of why I have a problem with this cull.

You're basically saying; kill a few thousand birds, at the cost of millions of pounds, just in case.
 
Adam W said:
Fair point Jos but is there actually a need to or would it be right to wait until we have solid evidence(we might already I dont know) that this is a big problem by which time it could be too late?
Is it not better to see that there is at least the obvious potential for a problem which I'm sure we'd all agree there is so then not take the risk of it becoming a problem?
As I've said before prevetion is better than cure especially if its too late for the cure to work.

While there may not be hard evidence as such that British Ruddies are actually causing a significant problem with Spanish white Headed Ducks at present I dont think anyone can deny the fact that Ruddies will breed with White Heads(hybrids that exist must proove that?) and nobody can deny that British Ruddies could get to Spain even if there isnt proof that they have yet though wouldnt the hybrids be proof of that too?
So in my opinion at least there's more than enough potential for a problem that it makes sense to act now instead of living to regret not acting just for the sake of the poor Ruddies that shouldnt be here anyway.
Click to expand...

I would not deny British Ruddies, or continental decendents of them, are almost certainly responsible for the records in Spain.

However, the world is full of potential problems - I personally would expect a little more information before actively supporting such a hugely expensive cull of a species, 'potential' is not enough. I imagine the questions I asked earlier have actually been answered by the relevant authorities, or at least I hope they have, so from the simple public relations angle, I really don't know why they have not been given more prominence.

Whi
 
Respected conservation organisations such as WWT and RSPB were clearly persuaded by the science, and supported the eradication programme. Like it or not, it's happened.

The onus was surely on opponents of the programme to produce a scientifically-based counter-argument to support their confident assertions that an unchecked proliferation of Ruddy Ducks throughout the Paleartic region would have no adverse impact on globally threatened native species.
 
Richard Klim said:
Respected conservation organisations such as WWT and RSPB were clearly persuaded by the science, and supported the eradication programme. Like it or not, it's happened.
Click to expand...

Hence the reason why I am fairly neutral on this issue - I have not seen sufficient evidence to actively support it, but at the same time have enough trust in these bodies to also not actively oppose it. That said, I would not myself reveal locations of Ruddy Ducks.

Moreover, though I may come from a different angle to those that oppose the cull, the criticisms directed towards them, suggesting a lack of understanding etc, seem largely without a solid foundation, neither side has added anything on this thread that takes me either way in my personal position.
 
ChrisKten said:
I'm sure Jos will reply to you, Adam, but your post is a good example of why I have a problem with this cull.

You're basically saying; kill a few thousand birds, at the cost of millions of pounds, just in case.
Click to expand...

I agree too Chris.

If we're not careful, there are people out there calling for a cull of all sorts of things including Badger, Pine Marten and more. The fishermen want Cormorants out of their hair and some I know would like Otters and Osprey on their hit-list too. Add to that the non-vegetarian Peregrines that are shamefully eating songbirds and racing pigeons and where does it stop?

With your recommendation for a shoot and ask questions later approach Adam aren't you just sticking your fingers up to science ?
 
Hold on a minute, lets not start dragging up things like Raptors as thats got nothing to do with killing non native species to help our native ones infact quite the opposite in some cases.
I'm not suggest for one minute that we just start blasting away willy nilly at anything that could potentailly be a problem but in ths case there a strong enough siggestions at least that there's a good chance of a problem and we are talking about killing something that shouldnt he here to help protect a native species.
So no i'm not saying shoot first ask questions later i'm just saying when we've got decent reason to think there is a problem dont wait until its too late and pay the price like we have done before with Grey Squirrels etc.
The one thing i would agree with is the outrageous amount of money it costs there's plenty of people out there with the knowlegde and ability to have done this and would have volunteered but lets not get into that
 
Adam W said:
The one thing i would agree with is the outrageous amount of money it costs there's plenty of people out there with the knowlegde and ability to have done this and would have volunteered but lets not get into that
Click to expand...
So it's ok for you to mention it but not ok for anyone else to ... ?

I call a foul on that. :C
 
This is about Rudy Ducks and culling them, its pretty obvious thay some people are now going to try and make it about something else and no doubt waiting like coiled springs for me to bite then go crying to the Mods about me.
No more from me unless we are actually going to dicuss the original subject.
 
This has probably been mentioned in earlier posts, but just in case:

The cost of this cull is quite staggering; I had no idea (before becoming interested due to this thread) that such large sums of money was involved:

The initial trials :
A total of about £1.35million has been spent. This includes the initial research by the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust as well as the control trials carried out by CSL since 1999
Click to expand...

The cull itself (prediction based on 5 years, we're in year 7 now):
The five year programme aimed at the full eradication of ruddy ducks in the UK will cost about £3.337million. About half of that figure will be provided by LIFE-Nature funding, with the remainder as matching funding from Defra.
Click to expand...

Also non-target species have been killed; this was just during the trials. Although to be fair, this is probably unavoidable to a certain extent
During the three year trial between 1999 and 2002 there were a total of 15 non-target casualties, this is in comparison to 2,651 ruddy ducks culled, a proportion of less than 0.006
Click to expand...
Sounds an acceptably small number, but I guess it depends on what the killed species were.

(Quoted text is from the official DEFRA Q&A document)
 
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ChrisKten said:
This has probably been mentioned in earlier posts, but just in case:

The cost of this cull is quite staggering; I had no idea (before becoming interested due to this thread) that such large sums of money was involved:

The initial trials :


The cull itself (prediction based on 5 years, we're in year 7 now):


Also non-target species have been killed; this was just during the trials. Although to be fair, this is probably unavoidable to a certain extent
Sounds an acceptably small number, but I guess it depends on what the killed species were.

(Quoted text is from the official DEFRA Q&A document)
Click to expand...

I don't know what the killed species were but there is a strong rumour that a White-headed Duck was amongst them, I'm sure there was one in the country at the time.
 
Although lacking the sort of detailed information Jos has called for the link below presents a convincing, if circumstantial, case. Certainly those scientist involved in these studies seem to have no doubt that a cull is needed. (Unfortunately several of the links I've found on the internet no longer seem to work, but I'm still looking!)
http://www.unep-aewa.org/publications/technical_series/ts8_ssap_white-headed-duck_complete.pdf

Although circumstantial evidence must be used with caution, it's worth remembering that the benficial effects of lemons in combating scurvy was only 'proved' in absolute scientific terms in the 1950s. To me reading the information above (and elswhere) seems clear that it is very probable - close to a certainty - that hybridisation represents a real threat to WHD. (Are there not similar cass involving Mallard and closely related 'species' like Black Duck, etc?)

Ruddy Duck seem more able to adapt to man made habitats (e.g. gravel pits, reservoirs, etc) than WHD. Such habitats are widespread throughout Europe which suggests to me that the potential population of Ruddy Ducks here could massively outnumber WHDs in a relatively short time. The historical 'core' of Ruddy Duck population in the UK is c1,000 miles from WHD populations in Spain; what might we expect if they were allowed to establish themselves much closer to Spain? The liklihood is that the prevelance of hybridisation would increase. At the moment Ruddy Duck are established in areas where culls can be efficiently organised, but if we continue to dither (as suggested) this might not always be the case. As for the cost, well in global terms, it's peanuts. Personally I'd rather give White-headed Duck the benefit of the doubt rather than the interloper, Ruddy Duck,
 
keith said:
I don't know what the killed species were but there is a strong rumour that a White-headed Duck was amongst them, I'm sure there was one in the country at the time.
Click to expand...
Although unlikely, even if a lone escaped or vagrant White-headed Duck was amongst the Ruddy Ducks culled in the UK, I can't see that it would have any significance. Responsible conservation is about saving species and native populations, not individuals.
 
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John Cantelo said:
...

Ruddy Duck seem more able to adapt to man made habitats (e.g. gravel pits, reservoirs, etc) than WHD. ...
Click to expand...

If only Nature could find a way of making WHDs as adaptable; say by breeding with a close genetic relative that was already adapted to man-made habitats;)

I know, there'd be no WHDs. But the thought crossed my mind, so I've posted it|=)|
 
Jos Stratford said:
Hence the reason why I am fairly neutral on this issue - I have not seen sufficient evidence to actively support it, but at the same time have enough trust in these bodies to also not actively oppose it. That said, I would not myself reveal locations of Ruddy Ducks.
Click to expand...

Very well said Jos...

To be honest this sums my own thoughts on the cull in words better than I ever have
 
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