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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Swift ID Whitburn Co.Durham (1 Viewer)

Also I think the wing tip shape changes depending upon which of Adam's shots you use (see attached)

Yes they change depending on whether the primaries are fully open or the outer two slightly overlapped - but that one still doesn't really have the right shape and it would be nice to see it in some of the shots.... or see that there was damage. Likewise it doesn't appear to show broad hips in any shot, though that is a lot more subjective.

Out of interest, does anyone have photos of the other "Pallid Swifts" that ended up getting downgraded this autumn for comparison?


One thing that has been bothering me is the line that this bird shows between the lower belly and under tail coverts It almost looks like there is a line of feathering missing.

As I said up there, not easy these things
 
Shot of the Filey bird from Sunday attached. Poor light, overexposed photo, so not ideal.

Better images of this bird exist - I'll try to get permission to upload one.
 

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Allegedly, though you could just as easily have posted this or this (from the same gallery) (hi by the way hope you're well)

I'm good thanks Alan..

For a fairer comparison I've used a photo where the Whitburn bird has its primaries fully open, to the point of separating. Look at the relative lengths of the outer three primaries.
 

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Nice point Ken, and something that has been missed in this discussion: the overall coloration.
Spent 2 weeks on Menorca and Portugal this year comparing the 2.
I described it as "milky-brown". Though one could say " Toffee Brown", "Creamy Tea", or similar for Pallid. When you catch them in the right light, it's the ground colour that strikes you most. So much so, that it's a revelation.
They were not named "Pallid" for no reason!
Anyone with experience of Pallid and Common, occuring together in a region, will know how difficult they are to separate. Unless one gets views in the right light, and that is crucial in my experience. It is one of those birds that will always demand the grace of a certain view, in certain light, to see it as it really is.

Yes Phil the ''lighting'' and ideally against a background of neutral tones does help! My original bird was seen If memory serves...9th May and it was watched perhaps for 10 minutes against blue sky (no direct sunlight) .billowing white clounds and the green sward of Sussex downland...in short absolutely perfect neutral lighting. I re-submitted again and asked them to qualify any response..apart from the ''previous'', It was suggested that it could well have been the race pekeninsis ....so much for expertise in these matters. ;)

cheers
 
Great thread this, I had a look at photos of the Newbiggin bird from Nov 2005 and again it looks very similar, but I have no idea how, or if, I can link them here? Worth a look though.
 
A few shots of the Filey bird attached. Not mine, but I've had permission to post.

Taken with the sea as a backdrop.
 

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So...i'm taking it, that having read the latest info here, that in conclusion the 'general' opinion is that this bird is defo a common swift..?

And that the apparent pale bases to belly feathers are in fact simply a lighting effect as Jane suggested?

That being the case it just goes to show doesn't it? Apparent or not...the effect is indeed one of pale bases and shows just how careful one has to be in interpreting appearance....

A most illuminating and educational thread....:cat:

http://username-beast.blogspot.com/
 
So...i'm taking it, that having read the latest info here, that in conclusion the 'general' opinion is that this bird is defo a common swift..?

And that the apparent pale bases to belly feathers are in fact simply a lighting effect as Jane suggested?

That being the case it just goes to show doesn't it? Apparent or not...the effect is indeed one of pale bases and shows just how careful one has to be in interpreting appearance....

A most illuminating and educational thread....:cat:

http://username-beast.blogspot.com/

I'd be surprised if anyone is really definite about this bird!

For an experiment - do these birds have pale bases or tips?
 

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I'm not sure you can draw that conclusion yet. Ross Ahmed wrote the 2010 Dutch Birding ID paper with Peter Adriaens, as he highlighted he is confident this is a Pallid as is at least one other experienced observer I've been corresponding with off thread.

This has still more to run IMO.
 
A few shots of the Filey bird attached. Not mine, but I've had permission to post.

Taken with the sea as a backdrop.

Blimey. When you look at the 'swift3' image you'd swear it was very blunt winged and very much what you'd expect from a Pallid. Then the other images give it a quite different appearance, almost looks a totally different bird.

Pale bases/tips on underparts - I'm stuggling on this bit. I'm not sure how you can be confident given the clarity of the photos. Yes, there are pale crescents, but to say 100% whether they are overlapping feather tips or pale bases makes me uneasy.

Makes you wonder about previous late autumn records, pre-digital analysis. In Martin Garner's excellent ID article on the Birdguides webzine, he says "Perhaps the best way to claim the vagrant Pallid Swift might be to see it badly, and briefly, and not to get any good photographs!". I wonder how many Pallid Swifts have been accepted without photos and just on observer interpretation of characters?

This thread has been a bit of an eye-opener. Many thanks for the excellent input.

Mark
 
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I'm not sure you can draw that conclusion yet. Ross Ahmed wrote the 2010 Dutch Birding ID paper with Peter Adriaens, as he highlighted he is confident this is a Pallid as is at least one other experienced observer I've been corresponding with off thread.

This has still more to run IMO.

Great...i love more intrigue...;)

Jane..in the first 'experiment' pic...to me those belly feathers look pale edged giving a fish scaled appearance...not so sure on the second pic tho...!

ps...of the recently posted pix of the Filey bird the underparts look very similar to the subject bird of this thread....:smoke: But upper shots of the bird do look very pale...a lot down to lighting again i suspect?...wonderfully 'tricky'...;)

pps..these swifts are much easier in real life...given long observations...:cat:

http://username-beast.blogspot.com/
 
I'm good thanks Alan..

For a fairer comparison I've used a photo where the Whitburn bird has its primaries fully open, to the point of separating. Look at the relative lengths of the outer three primaries.

I was intrigued by the radically different apparent exposed lengths of the greater underwing coverts (the feathers that overlie the primaries anyway) between these two birds. A feature? Age? Moult? Nonsense?

cheers, a
 
Well first of all thanks to everyone for the excellent input annd kind comments on my photo's.

I was just about happy to settle for Common but it would still seem that several people in a far better position to judge than me seem to still be in the Pallid camp so who knows.

The way i see it is strucurally it certainly fits Common better than Pallid but as we all know the camera can lie but that said with the amount and if i do say so myself quality of the shots you'd perhaps expect to see at least some shots showing a more classic Pallid structure if it was a Pallid. Again though having said that i'm struggling to see the difference between this bird and many images ive looked at of Pallid,there seems to be many images around of Pallid that dont really show obvious blunt wing tips and my shots seem to show at least some variation in this respect so not quite sure how reliable this feature is especially in photo's.

Plumage well i think there's at least enough to argue the case for Pallid, if this bird had obvious blunt wing tips and 'fat hips' then i doubt many would be arguing its a Common because of the plumage features. Although i must say even in the field i cant say this bird looked quite 'sand Martin' brown compared to Common.

As for flight action, well as i explained i was unaware of the differences but knowing what i know now it certainly did seem to be behaving more like Pallid than Common but i also think Alan made a very good point that this is perhaps not a good feature when considering any Swift essentially in the wrong place at this time of year.

The main things that still make me unsure are the pale bases issue, personally i do think it has pale bases so if this is truely a diagnostic feature then perhaps it is a Pallid but opinion seems divided on wether this birds actually does have pale bases and secondly the fact that people who obviously know more than me still seem to be thinking Pallid with i can only assume good reason.

Whatever the outcome its been an interesting bird and thread and I for one have certainly learnt a lot about Swift ID.
 
I was intrigued by the radically different apparent exposed lengths of the greater underwing coverts (the feathers that overlie the primaries anyway) between these two birds. A feature? Age? Moult? Nonsense?

cheers, a

Good spot Alan, but looking quickly through the images referred to in #5, it doesn't seem to hold true. A pity. That would have been very useful if it were a consistent difference.

Brett
 
Pallid Swift - illyricus??

First off..terrific shots Adam..I know how tough it is to 'nail' swifts in flight.
This is not an easy bird, especially since there's a psychological disposition to id. a late swift as a Pallid, so it's hard to break that mindset and look at them objectively when thoughts of "it's late, it's most likely a Pallid".

And, there's been enough pale swifts lately that have been educational (Filey and Shetland from several years back?) However, I can't dismiss this as a Common yet.

Common Swifts can and do show scaling on the underbody like a Pallid, but whether this is due to pale TIPS or pale bases is something I don't know - It would be nice for Ross to elucidate on his comment on feather bases and to confirm that both have scaling but it's formed by just the bases (Pallid) compared to the tips (Common)?

Birds I took in Spain in May (adult, spring...relevant??) show the scaling that is apparently made up of a dark base with a pale fringe?

Pallid's look bull-headed to me, with often a dark malar noticeable in the field formed by the pale throat and predominantly paler head sides. The throat is usually extensive and graduates into the breast, but juv. Swifts may show a somewhat similar throat pattern (aint seen any for a while!), but the darker malar is something that stands out to me, at least on spring Spanish Pallids.

Primary formula is very variable with both species showing P10 as the longest primary, AND the second longest, something I've noted on several of my images and not something that bothers me as an individual character.

Finally, the main concern for me is that we are all basing our id. on birds from the Med., since this is what we are familiar with. Although pekinensis is mentioned as a pitfall for Pallid, the eastern race of Pallid from Croatia, illyricus is very similar to Common Swift, being darker than pallidus and most likely really tough in the field. Could the Whitburn bird possibly be an illyricus Pallid? I don't see anything that wouldn't fit and Denmark's first record was a specimen taken in March. I direct you to the following illuminating paper
by Kasper Thorup.

http://www.zmuc.dk/VerWeb/staff/kthorup/Kt-pdf/DOFT95-169high.pdf

It is entirely reasonable to assume that late autumn birds may come from further east? and that if so, these Pallid's will be quite tough to id.

Be good to get some further input and a great educational thread.

JH
 

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