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Apparent Thayer's Gull in Iceland (2 Viewers)

Whoever fpound it is a very acute observer, I would have counted it as one of many Herring Gulls. Back to the books for me!
 
I agree with Yann's comments and would add that the heavier winter streaking on the neck adds credence. It is more distinct than that on the BF Gallery birds, but almost identical to that on the two Thayer's I just saw over here at New Year's.
 
Hi Edward,
While it looks quite good for Thayer's based on plumage,I am a bit concerned about the 'gentle' Iceland Gull-type head and bill,compared with those of 'classic' Thayer's.Either a female Thayer's or a thayeri/kumlieni intergrade,but how to distinguish between these two...?
Harry H
 
I will go with Harry as well. The head shape, the neck width, the bill, and for me, the primary mirrrors bring it into question.

Malky @ Westhill
 
Hi Edward.
After looking up Thayers gull, in P.J.Grants Gull identification, page 334, I have to say its good for a Thayers. the primary mirrors-and plumage give a good
summer adult gull. even the head-neck shape which
have been pointed out by Malky look the same.
bert.
 
Edward said:
A gull was discovered on 12 January and seen again yesterday by several observers (necessitating yet another expensive taxi journey by me) in Hafnarfjörður close to Reykjavík. It is thought to be a Thayer's Gull. See pictures and a discussion at http://www.hi.is/~yannk/lartha04.html

E
Also looks good for a Thayers after consulting Olsen and Larsson Gulls of Europe Asia and North America.
They show several photos which appear to have identical primary pattern to this bird, including the very small black subterminal marking on p5. In many of the photos head and neck shape look similar to this bird it really seems to depend on posture at the time of photo. It says "note rounded head shape, darkish looking eye and rather slender greenish tinged bill. Thayers similar shaped to Iceland gull"

Then again this book was withdrawn from the market as plates and text were mixed up so i could be describing an american herring gull for all i know ;)
 
Thanks for the interesting comments on this bird. I've just read a good discussion on the Danish website netfugl.dk (I knew learning Danish would pay off one day) in which a certain Danish author of a recent work on gulls argues at length why he believes this bird is a Thayer's Gull. Not everyone may agree which is why we'll be blowing the dust off the shotgun tomorrow....only kidding. Not sure if we'll be able to get a good look at the bird again as heavy snow and winds are forecast in this area tomorrow (Ivory Gull??). Good job United are on telly.

E
 
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My first response on seeing Yann's excellent pictures was 'on no, it's that horrible age class'. The nearly- adult age in both Thayer's and Kumlien''s, I have found in the past to be, in my opinion, probably one of the most difficult. Some forth winter Kumlien's can have loads of dark on the primaries, and in my view, mimic or get very close to patterns in adult Thayer's. I can came to the conclusion a while ago that this age class might at times be unidentifiable, even though the adult subsequent adult plumage of such birds might be relatively straight forward. So already my bias with the Icelandic bird would be that it's difficult to be certain of the identification, simply because it has dark on the primary coverts, even though the rest of the pattern appears to be good for Thayer's, and outside of the range for Kumlien's.

My second observation of the photographs is the bill. Some small female type adult Thayer's can obviously be at the weaker billed of things, but nevertheless my recollection of hundreds of Thayer's Gulls, is that there is always a 'weightiness' about the bill that is just so lacking on this Icelandic bird that I'd have to be strongly persuaded that such a weak looking bill was ok. for Thayers.

Having commented on this interesting gull in Iceland, I decided to check the pictures again as I've not had much time, and immediately saw something that gave me more insight into the birds potential identification. The general assumption seems to have been that the wing tip pattern is like that of an adult, even though there are dark markings on the primary coverts indicating a fourth or fifth winter type plumage. This is presumably based on the pattern of the primaries as depicted on the under wing.

The pattern on the upper wing is harder to be sure of because of the particular fore-shortened angle in which it appears in the photograph. What I could see as I looked at this with a little more concentration, is that there is a longitudinal brownish mark on P5 (presumeably on the outer web along the shaft), besides the small dark subterminal mark, and the dark patterning on P7 (although it's very hard to be sure), appears to reach almost as far as the primary coverts. If my perception is correct then this is not right for either adult Thayer's or Kumlien's Gull. That's a complicated way of saying that I think from what I can see in the photograph, that whole of the primary pattern of this bird is that of an immature pattern, and not an adult pattern. I have certainly seen such an immature pattern as this on near adult/ sub-adult Kumlien's Gulls. Essentially all young Thayer's and Kumlien's at some stage (around third or fourth winter), can show long dark fingers in five or six primaries, as I suspect this bird does.

A similar problem can be encountered in michahelis Yellow-legged Gulls, which can look just like full adult birds, except for some dark marks on the primary coverts and the overall primary pattern is confusingly the same as armenicus or barabensis and even though it looks like an adult primary pattern, it's an immature pattern and the bird develops a normal michahelis wing pattern when fully adult.

If we change our paradigm and call it an immature gull primary pattern, then we're much closer to calling the bird a sub-adult Kumlien's Gull.

I gather there may be more photographs of the bird forthcoming, which hopefully will display the primary pattern more accurately, and prove me wrong or otherwise! I would be interested to hear what others think.

Best wishes,

Martin Garner.
 
Hi all,
Here are Killian Mullarney's comments on the gull,as sent to Dominic Mitchell and subsequently posted on the WestPalBirds newsgroup:
'Thanks for your email alerting me to the Thayer's Gull in Iceland - very interesting. At first glance it certainly looks like a promising candidate for a Thayer's, but I share some of the concerns already voiced by others.
Firstly, as it is apparently not fully adult the 'pro-thayeri' features in the pattern of dark on the outer primaries may not carry quite so much 'weight' as if it were a full adult (since in all these gulls,sub-adults tend to have a greater extent of dark in the outer primaries than full adults). Also, the dark eye colour cannot be considered especially indicative of Thayer's, as dark eyed Kumlien's Gulls are not exceptional.
One feature that does fit so well with the 'dark-winged Kumlien's' possibility is the apparently significantly darker shade of the grey upperparts than the glaucoides Iceland Gull alongside, but even this could be within the range of Kumlien's; Kumlien's is usually slightly darker grey above than glaucoides, and it is difficult to judge in these shots if the apparent difference is exceeds what is normal between these two.
In addition to all this, it would be a much better candidate if its 'character' was not so close to Kumlien's/Iceland Gull.
If the grey of the upperparts really is a shade darker than is usual in Kumlien's, it raises the possibility of the hypothetical Iceland Gull x Thayer's Gull hybrid discussed by Steve Howell and Bruce Mactavish in their recent paper on Kumlien's Gull, published in Alula magazine. I discussed this idea with Richard Millington earlier today and he had some interesting suggestions as to why such a hybrid might not necessarily match one
or other of the various Kumlien's types we are used to.
No-one ever said these things were easy!'
Harry H
 
Killian Mullarney via Harry Hussey said:
It raises the possibility of the hypothetical Iceland Gull x Thayer's Gull hybrid discussed by Steve Howell and Bruce Mactavish in their recent paper on Kumlien's Gull, published in Alula magazine. I discussed this idea with Richard Millington earlier today and he had some interesting suggestions as to why such a hybrid might not necessarily match one or other of the various Kumlien's types we are used to.
Erm . . . isn't that what Kumlien's is now thought to be, a natural hybrid population of Iceland x Thayer's?

Michael
 
Hi Michael,

How does this 'natural hybrid population' work in the case of Kumlein's? Do all Kumlein's have some Thayers and some Iceland ancestry? How is it different to a clinal variation across one species? Just curious to know how this has been established.
 
Hi Fifey,

The hybrid origin of Kumlien's was proposed by McGowan & Kitchener, Brit. Birds 94: 191-194 (2001), and supported by Boertmann (author of the latest Greenland avifauna) in Brit. Birds 94: 547-548 (2001) - check those out, and you'll know as much as I do ;)

Michael
 
Hi Michael,
I think that what KM was referring to was a direct case of hybridisation between 'pure' Thayer's and Iceland,rather than these mucky so-called 'Kumlien's',which,though having genetic input from both species,probably aren't the direct result of such a pairing(this hybrid swarm presumably is fertile with either Thayer's or Iceland,and also within itself,if you know what I mean?)
Harry H
 
Many thanks for the detailed and erudite comments concerning the identity of this intriguing bird. It's easy to see why gulls of this kind either a) absolutely fascinate people or b) make some birders dismiss everything as seagulls and make them go and concentrate on "real" birds instead.

More photos of the Hafnarfjörður bird have now been added to http://www.hi.is/~yannk/lartha04.html

E
 
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