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Pipit (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jane Turner
- Start date
Gerry Hooper
Certified User
Rock Pipits I'd say,with a well marked supercillium.
The overall Grey tone and couple of wing bars are good features, along with Grey legs(not very clear in these photos).
A pinkish flush on the breast and evenbetter marked supercillium and we,d be looking at a Water Pipit.
The overall Grey tone and couple of wing bars are good features, along with Grey legs(not very clear in these photos).
A pinkish flush on the breast and evenbetter marked supercillium and we,d be looking at a Water Pipit.
Hi Jane,
Firstly,welcome to the Bird Forum!
As for the pipit,it's a bit odd:that supercilium is well marked for Rock Pipit,and the upperparts are very grey,but I don't think that it's a Water Pipit(bear in mind that I've never seen one),as it appears too well streaked below,with a slightly less distinct supercilium than I'd expect for that species.
The text books say that littoralis Rock Pipit is indistinguishable from the nominate race except in summer plumage,but my reckoning is that this is most likely what the bird is?
Harry H
Firstly,welcome to the Bird Forum!
As for the pipit,it's a bit odd:that supercilium is well marked for Rock Pipit,and the upperparts are very grey,but I don't think that it's a Water Pipit(bear in mind that I've never seen one),as it appears too well streaked below,with a slightly less distinct supercilium than I'd expect for that species.
The text books say that littoralis Rock Pipit is indistinguishable from the nominate race except in summer plumage,but my reckoning is that this is most likely what the bird is?
Harry H
Hi Jane,
I'd concur with Harry. I think this bird basically looks like a Rock Pipit in terms of colouration, intensity of streaking (particularly on the underparts) and structure. It does have an unusually distinct supercillium and wing bars but I don't think this is outside the range of variation for Rock Pipit (especially taking into account the littoralis Scandinavian birds that will be migrating through Britain at the moment. I guess that it's also likely to be in fairly fresh plumage at the moment, which might explain the prominence of the wing bars.
I'd concur with Harry. I think this bird basically looks like a Rock Pipit in terms of colouration, intensity of streaking (particularly on the underparts) and structure. It does have an unusually distinct supercillium and wing bars but I don't think this is outside the range of variation for Rock Pipit (especially taking into account the littoralis Scandinavian birds that will be migrating through Britain at the moment. I guess that it's also likely to be in fairly fresh plumage at the moment, which might explain the prominence of the wing bars.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
OK its time to come clean. Yes its a Scandi Rock Pipit. I posted it here because I originally put a pic on Surfbirds and immediately got 4 people tell me its was a Water Pipit! It hightlights the potential pitfalls nicely. It is at the extreme end of Rock Pipit in terms of super and wing bars.. and that outer TF really is gleaming white!
The give away is the underparts...far too streaky for Water and the colour of the upperparts. This time of year Waters always look browner to me, whereas this is olive with a grey cast. Call helped too. A classic "Fissssst"
There was an influx of Rock Pipits, 15 were on the beach and three showed littoralis tendencies. This pic is another of the presumed littoralis birds. Once that was stationary long enough for me to get a still of it.
I have seen Scandi's with reduced and neat breast streaking. Add that to the grey mantle and vinous flush in summer plumage and some might be indistinguishable from Water Pipit.
The give away is the underparts...far too streaky for Water and the colour of the upperparts. This time of year Waters always look browner to me, whereas this is olive with a grey cast. Call helped too. A classic "Fissssst"
There was an influx of Rock Pipits, 15 were on the beach and three showed littoralis tendencies. This pic is another of the presumed littoralis birds. Once that was stationary long enough for me to get a still of it.
I have seen Scandi's with reduced and neat breast streaking. Add that to the grey mantle and vinous flush in summer plumage and some might be indistinguishable from Water Pipit.
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Jane Turner
Well-known member
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
Jane,
I wouldn't argue with you, have similar pics of a bird last winter in Lancs. But the new Alston and Mild book says racial ID shouldn't be attempted!
Stephen.
I wouldn't argue with you, have similar pics of a bird last winter in Lancs. But the new Alston and Mild book says racial ID shouldn't be attempted!
Stephen.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
I don't have that book yet! Its funny Svensson suggests a few littoralis cannot safely be distinguished from spinoletta! I guess its a bit like eastern Chiffchaffs. You can ID the extremes but they are clinal and there is huge overlap.
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
I think the big spanner in the works is a small number of recorded petrosus which look like spinoletta in summer - what would these birds look like in winter. These are why Alstom and Mild are circumspect I think.
For what it's worth I think aberrant petrosus are likely to be far less common than littoralis, even over here on the west coast.
The thread listed below started by Darrell is quite a useful reference, I welcome any more comments on the pictures I posted there.
Stephen.
For what it's worth I think aberrant petrosus are likely to be far less common than littoralis, even over here on the west coast.
The thread listed below started by Darrell is quite a useful reference, I welcome any more comments on the pictures I posted there.
Stephen.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Starting to look like a premature split really isn't it. Your bird looks very like one I saw before the days of digiscoping. One April I saw a large (read huge) pipit with bright white outer TF's deck in and was really excited. Putting bins to it I asw ash grey mantle and inmmense flared white super...
I called out Water Pipit, secretly a little miffed it wasn't a Tawny. Then in turned round to reveal a hugely streaked breast on a bright vinous pink ground colour and I had to back track.
Its been good for Scandinavian and Sibe stuff here in the last week. My money is on littoralis x3
I called out Water Pipit, secretly a little miffed it wasn't a Tawny. Then in turned round to reveal a hugely streaked breast on a bright vinous pink ground colour and I had to back track.
Its been good for Scandinavian and Sibe stuff here in the last week. My money is on littoralis x3
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Starting to look like a premature split really isn't it. Your bird looks very like one I saw before the days of digiscoping. One April I saw a large (read huge) pipit with bright white outer TF's deck in and was really excited. Putting bins to it I asw ash grey mantle and inmmense flared white super...
I called out Water Pipit, secretly a little miffed it wasn't a Tawny. Then in turned round to reveal a hugely streaked breast on a bright vinous pink ground colour and I had to back track.
Its been good for Scandinavian and Sibe stuff here in the last week. My money is on littoralis x3
I called out Water Pipit, secretly a little miffed it wasn't a Tawny. Then in turned round to reveal a hugely streaked breast on a bright vinous pink ground colour and I had to back track.
Its been good for Scandinavian and Sibe stuff here in the last week. My money is on littoralis x3
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
Sorry - I'm having a bad day - read littoralis for spinoletta above. Birds with blue heads, huge supercilia, reduced streaking etc.
I would also put my money on littoralis re your birds, just pointing out some of the alleged pitfalls.
Stephen.
I would also put my money on littoralis re your birds, just pointing out some of the alleged pitfalls.
Stephen.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
You did indeed. I was chatting to the recorder of Essex. Apparently almost all the Rockits they get there are littoralis. Petrosus is a description bird.
Some interesting stuff on the earlier thread about littoralis. I saw a couple round here in the spring that looked very similar to Stephen's birds. Not quite the right colour or with as clear and white a supercillium as Water Pipits but very similar. There were a few records of Water Pip round here at the same time. On beaches.
It struck me that a particularly difficult identification problem comes when comparing birds moulting from winter to summer plumage. You can get some quite messy, dull and streaky looking Water Pips in early spring that are just starting to develop the more bluey coloured head and upperparts and pinkish breast. I'm really not sure what would be the best way to distinguish them from a bright littoralis coming into breeding plumage, except perhaps the more subdued upperpart streaking on Water Pipit.
It struck me that a particularly difficult identification problem comes when comparing birds moulting from winter to summer plumage. You can get some quite messy, dull and streaky looking Water Pips in early spring that are just starting to develop the more bluey coloured head and upperparts and pinkish breast. I'm really not sure what would be the best way to distinguish them from a bright littoralis coming into breeding plumage, except perhaps the more subdued upperpart streaking on Water Pipit.
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
For an informative reference site on Water Pipits and (to a lesser extent) Scan Rocks try the Fylde Bird Club pipit page:
http://www.fyldebirdclub.org/warton_pipit_page.htm
Which was developed after heated debates over Water Pipits in spring on the Ribble Estuary.
http://www.fyldebirdclub.org/warton_pipit_page.htm
Which was developed after heated debates over Water Pipits in spring on the Ribble Estuary.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
......and true to form I'd say at least two of the Water's aren't if that makes sense 
Lucky Birder
Notts Birder
I have just had a littoralis in leicestershire. It was present for two days. The unusual things were (a) the call, not particularly like Rock Pipit or Water Pipit but more like a Meadow Pipit but with longer spaces between the 'pheets' and (b) it had very white outer tail feathers. Many of it's characters were more akin to spinoletta than petrosus , but it had all the classic features of littoralis like in jane's photos including a warm buffish pink flush or suffusion on the upper breast. I suspect that Petrosus/spinoletta are clinal with littoralis being an intermediate form. Some Petrosus in the outer hebrides can look awfully like littoralis.
Stephen Dunstan
Registered User
I don't believe littoralis is an intermediate form between petrosus and spinoletta, Mike Pennington has gone into why this wouldn't make sense on other pipit threads. There is a more of a case for a cline in littoralis.
Your points about calls are interesting. I have never been able to tell littoralis and petrosus apart on call, Water Pipits do sound slightly different but it is very subtle.
Regards,
Stephen.
Your points about calls are interesting. I have never been able to tell littoralis and petrosus apart on call, Water Pipits do sound slightly different but it is very subtle.
Regards,
Stephen.
