Any new species left to find ? (1 Viewer)

Neil Grubb · Sep 28, 2004

A question! Do you think it is possible that there are still undiscovered bird species in (a) Britain and if not , then in (b) Europe ?

My thoughts are that, for some bird types, e.g. warblers, species differences are quite subtle. Could it be that, to state an extremely unlikely example, there are distinct species within the birds we currently call blue tits or wrens ? (I realise there are subspecies of different birds, and indeed the definition of a species is not an easy thing to state. By species I mean separate, non-interbreeding groups among apparently similar birds. Some would define two birds as separate species if they could not produce fertile offspring.)

Anyway, any thoughts ?!

Edward woodwood · Sep 28, 2004

sorry to be a damp squib Neil , but no.

some forms may be elevated to specific status but there surely won't be a new 'species' discovered, as it were.

very boring banned member · Sep 28, 2004

Neil Grubb said:
A question! Do you think it is possible that there are still undiscovered bird species in (a) Britain and if not , then in (b) Europe ?

My thoughts are that, for some bird types, e.g. warblers, species differences are quite subtle. Could it be that, to state an extremely unlikely example, there are distinct species within the birds we currently call blue tits or wrens ? (I realise there are subspecies of different birds, and indeed the definition of a species is not an easy thing to state. By species I mean separate, non-interbreeding groups among apparently similar birds. Some would define two birds as separate species if they could not produce fertile offspring.)

Anyway, any thoughts ?!

I would use Your last definition, which is the biological one, and would not wait any new species from Europe. If we just speak of non-interbreeding colonies, then there are different Passer species in any town.

jurek · Sep 28, 2004

I agree with Tim and Karwin.

However, there is a tiny, tiny possibility that "some" new species is lurking somewhere in North Africa or Middle East. Algerian Nuthatch was discovered only in 1975 and Afgan Snowfinch (Montifringilla theresae) in 1937 or 1939. Who knows, maybe some mountains of Central Sahara, or Iran, still hide something?

IanF · Sep 28, 2004

Personally I think there is every chance that a new species to the UK will be discovered. Lets face it, even with the number of bird watchers we have in the UK there really can't be that much blanket coverge of every area a vargrant might appear.

You really need a knowlegable bird watcher to be able identify something different from the norm.

I'm sure I'm not the only person to have seen something 'different' looking but was unable to identify it at the time. I have a current one of something Purple Swamp Heron sized but with a beak more like that of a Water Rail and just about as secretive.

On another tangent surely there are continental species that may yet make it over here eg. Black Woodpecker which was rumoured to be hear but never confirmed.

I guess I like to keep an open mind on most things.

Edward woodwood · Sep 28, 2004

Hi Ian

I think the poster was referring to new species to science being discovered?

IanF · Sep 28, 2004

In that case I'd agree, it's extremely unlikely to my mind as well.

Ryder · Sep 28, 2004

jurek said:
I agree with Tim and Karwin.

However, there is a tiny, tiny possibility that "some" new species is lurking somewhere in North Africa or Middle East. Algerian Nuthatch was discovered only in 1975 and Afgan Snowfinch (Montifringilla theresae) in 1937 or 1939. Who knows, maybe some mountains of Central Sahara, or Iran, still hide something?

Most likely new species will be in fairly remote areas, but they are certainly there, like this recent news:

http://www.audubon.org/news/press_releases/Calayan_Rail.html#TopOfPage

Cheers,
Craig Ryder

Edward woodwood · Sep 28, 2004

Hi Craig

certainly there will be several new species found on a global scale

there must be a few Scops Owls out there on remote islands....

perhaps one or two new species on some Indonesian islands

ought to be a fair few new things in Colombia and perhaps one or two in Manu and other areas of Peru and other South American countries

still a lot out there - lets hope we find it before it's gone

M Cowming · Sep 28, 2004

Calayan Rail was found only 3 to 4 months ago.

See, we don't know everything...yet

Hanno · Sep 29, 2004

Here in Vietnam, a new species is found every few years. I am sure the same is possible in many Asian, African, and South American countries.

Jodievdw · Sep 29, 2004

There was a recent series of posts kicking around here (which I'd find and link to if my computer wasn't soooo slow!) about a new bird found in Peru. It doesn't have a name yet, but they're calling it the Kill Bill tanager - apparently it's the same shade of yellow as Uma Thurman's outfit from the movie. On a completely irrelevant (but kinda intersting note) they found a plant new to science locally not so long ago. It doesn't have a name yet either, mind you. Apparently there's 'something of a backlog' of taxonomic work waiting to be done!

very boring banned member · Sep 29, 2004

Jodievdw said:
On a completely irrelevant (but kinda intersting note) they found a plant new to science locally not so long ago. It doesn't have a name yet either, mind you. Apparently there's 'something of a backlog' of taxonomic work waiting to be done!

On other lifeforms, especially on Fungi & Protoctista, new species from any place in Europe is quite possible.

Nightranger · Sep 29, 2004

I suppose from a cryptozoology point of view, great auks could be 'rediscovered' somewhere in northern Europe. However, I think that this is very unlikely. That would leave the possibility of a 'split' or discovering a hitherto unknown relict population but I confess that I cannot think of any likely candidates.

Docmartin · Sep 29, 2004

It depends how you define 'discovering' new species. If you take things like, e.g. Willow Tit, where the British breeding population was 'discovered' to be separate from Marsh tits in late 1800s early 1900, or before that the splitting of Willow Warbler/Wood Warbler/Chiffie, then it might be possible. SOmething that we've all been looking at, but didn't realise was a new species cf. the thing we thought it was. I guess Common Crossbill might end up that way, with putative splits we just never 'saw' before.

Neil Grubb · Sep 29, 2004

Docmartin said:
It depends how you define 'discovering' new species. If you take things like, e.g. Willow Tit, where the British breeding population was 'discovered' to be separate from Marsh tits in late 1800s early 1900, or before that the splitting of Willow Warbler/Wood Warbler/Chiffie, then it might be possible.

This is the kind of thing I meant. I wondered whether there might be splits that we don't recognise in the birds we already think we know about. I doubt very much whether any completely new species would be discovered. There are certainly grey areas, such as hooded crow / carrion crow, white wagtail / pied wagtail (I think there was an article about this in one of the UK bird magazines last month). It depends how you define a species, as I stated in the original post!!

Richard D · Sep 30, 2004

Neil Grubb said:
This is the kind of thing I meant. I wondered whether there might be splits that we don't recognise in the birds we already think we know about. I doubt very much whether any completely new species would be discovered. There are certainly grey areas, such as hooded crow / carrion crow, white wagtail / pied wagtail (I think there was an article about this in one of the UK bird magazines last month). It depends how you define a species, as I stated in the original post!!

Maybe someone's going to start looking more closely at 'funny looking Mallards' and suddenly realise they aren't all hybrids...

MMSLouis · Apr 12, 2005

Yes to question, and new one posed..

Every year roughly 4--10 are discovered and this does not include subspp. being elevated to full specific rank. (interestinly, before c1930 most ornithologists did not consider "trinomials" or subspecies rankings, and all varieties were considered spp. Now many of these birds that were brought down to subspecific ranking by Peters et al are "returned" as legitimate taxons. A good ex. that comes to mind is Circus macrosceles from Madagascar, for most of the last century part of C. aeruginosus.). Most new discoveries are int he passerines, such as antbirds, ovenbirds, tapaculos, old world warblers, tanagers; but surprisingly the number of owls may come close to doubling. R. Peterson's "World of Birds" listed 134 in both ff., 1969, and a new book on the subject from 2003 lists 205. My new quetion concerns the reports of the "thunderbirds!" of Illinois, Misso., and other areas. In 1977 a child was, reportedly, nearly carried off by what is described as something like the condor Vultur gryphus, found only in the Andes. DOes anyone take this with "more than a grain of salt"?

Edward · Apr 13, 2005

MMSLouis said:
My new quetion concerns the reports of the "thunderbirds!" of Illinois, Misso., and other areas. In 1977 a child was, reportedly, nearly carried off by what is described as something like the condor Vultur gryphus, found only in the Andes. DOes anyone take this with "more than a grain of salt"?

I saw some video footage of "thunderbirds" on a Discovery show a while back. Finally conclusive evidence from the finder that a raptor with a 20 foot wingspan does indeed inhabit the woods of Illinois. They showed it to an ornithologist from Cornell (or somehwere similar) who needed 0.5 seconds to identify the mystery thunderbird as a..... perfectly normal sized Turkey Vulture. I don't really expect that Sibley will be needing to paint an extra plate for the next edition of his guide.

E

David FG · Apr 13, 2005

IanF said:
Personally I think there is every chance that a new species to the UK will be discovered. Lets face it, even with the number of bird watchers we have in the UK there really can't be that much blanket coverge of every area a vargrant might appear.

You really need a knowlegable bird watcher to be able identify something different from the norm.

I'm sure I'm not the only person to have seen something 'different' looking but was unable to identify it at the time. I have a current one of something Purple Swamp Heron sized but with a beak more like that of a Water Rail and just about as secretive.

On another tangent surely there are continental species that may yet make it over here eg. Black Woodpecker which was rumoured to be hear but never confirmed.

I guess I like to keep an open mind on most things.

The British Isles must be the most intensively watched small area in the world, musn't it? The chances of discovering a new species is rather remote.

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