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Old Wednesday 6th October 2010, 13:21   #326
Neil
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Thanks for that Neil, I've been out trying the set up today, and find if I use the 3:2 ratio, ex opt zm on and dig zoom x2 I get rid of the vignetting.
Its dull here in Scotland today but it is still giving excellent results on birds in garden and so much better then the coolpix 4500 I have been using!! Plus the speed is amazing and no shutter lag either, cant wait to ry it ut on a sunny day!!
Very impressed, but may splash out and get a fixed focal length, what would be your choice with use of the Swaro 80 SHD scope?
Thanks once again.
To answer several questions - I don't use a remote with the G1 but I do use the Self-timer sometimes. With it's speed (frames per second ) it's not necessary.
My preferred lens is the Zeiss 28/2.0 but it's a bit heavy for the G1 without support, so on the DCA I use the Nikon 24/2.8D which I bought second hand from B and H. The Nikons have a 52 mm filter thread which mates perfectly with the DCA.
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Old Wednesday 6th October 2010, 13:31   #327
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Excellent info, thanks Paul and Neil.
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Old Monday 11th October 2010, 09:38   #328
Brian Du Bretagne
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Hello Neil.
1st off.Thanks very much for your fantastic contribution to this thread.
Please forgive me but i am going "cross-eyed" at all the technical detail.
My question is this:
I have the Kowa 883+TZN -PZ 680-1000mm SLR Adapter.
If i buy the G1 (and i'm very tempted !!) Could i use my existing 30x fixed eyepiece from Kowa.?
If the answer is yes,what additional equipment would i need.Do i need simply the 52mm adapter ring ?
I'm using the P6000 at the moment with the Kowa DA 10 which fits beautifully over the 30x eyepiece.
If you could reply as simply as possible !!!!.as i'm not very technically minded (apologies in advance).
PS.If anybody else is using the Kowa/GI system,i would love to here from you as to how the system performs for you and your likes and dislikes.Many thanks.
"Cross-eyed" Brian.

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Old Wednesday 13th October 2010, 11:50   #329
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Jojomau,
...Maybe I'll see you out in Mai Po soon.
Neil.
Hi Neil,

I would join the HKBWS again and would be able to drop in Mai Po from Feb 2011. Should I come across you, please accept my hospitality to take you for a drink.

Have briefly tried out my gear this afternoon. Will post up after I find out how.

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Old Wednesday 13th October 2010, 12:03   #330
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My second try out of digiscoping.

Gear: STS80 HD, 25-50x, UCA, GH1, Canon 50mm f1.2 (LTM)

For the first two, distance is about 50m; last, 25m. All were taken at 25x, f2.8. No post shot manipulation except resizing to meet the forum requirements.

Not sharp. Poor colour quality. Due to lens widely opened?


Tseung Kwan O, Hong Kong
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Old Thursday 14th October 2010, 14:57   #331
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Taken this afternoon with GH1 and Leica 35mm Summicron ASPH, via Swar scope.
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Old Thursday 14th October 2010, 14:58   #332
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Capture with GH1 and Leica 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH via Swar scope.
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Old Thursday 14th October 2010, 15:49   #333
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Only Gh1 and 35mm cron. This is a very large web and the insect is enormous.
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Old Friday 15th October 2010, 15:49   #334
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3rd test drive

Swar STS80 HD, 25-50x; Pana GH1; Leica 35 Summicron ASPH

Oct 15 2010, f5.6 ISO320, 25x

Inner cove of Tiu Keung Bay, Hong Kong
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Old Friday 15th October 2010, 15:50   #335
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at 50x
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Old Wednesday 10th November 2010, 23:22   #336
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having just bought another G1 (I had one before and sold it) and also having finally made it back to a Swaro scope I thought it was time for another crack at digiscoping. My first attempts to day were just birds in the garden, but the results seemed promising, I'm looking forward to taking it out into the real world soon.
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Old Thursday 11th November 2010, 01:06   #337
Brian Du Bretagne
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Question G1 image problems.

Hi Postcard cv
Nice images.As you say great potential.
I'm having noise problems with my G1(i've posted a thread yesterday.)
May i ask you if you are using the supplied kit lens as i do and if so, do you open the zoom of the kit lens out to maximum when attaching it to your scope ?
I am using the Kowa 883 with the eyepiece detached.I have simply opened my kit lens zoom 1/2 inch to get rid of vignetting.Yet i'm not happy with the results i'm getting.I am certain somethings wrong,yet can't figure out what.
I'm starting to think that maybe the two main optics are too close together as i'm also getting strange distorted light on some of my images.I will try tomorrow to extend the zoom.
See attached thumbnail..The image is straight out of G1,no enchancement.iso 400.Aperture priority,spot focus.
Ps if anyone can help,i would be very happy !!!.Tearing my hair out !!!!
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Old Wednesday 29th December 2010, 18:09   #338
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Dave,
Yes. You either need a fixed eyepiece on the scope or a fixed lens on the camera to get the best out of the G1. Neil.
I have the G1 with the 14-45 kit lens and a Swaro STS 80 HD with the 20-60x eyepiece. I get significant vignetting as you'd expect. I really like the 20-60x for mudflats and the long shots I'm always seeming to need. Given the above, I can eliminate the vignette with the digital zoom at 2x which is kind of like an automatic cropping, but it only works in jpg and the RAW format is so much better. I've just gotten started, but so far, I'm just cropping in post processing, but I'm really wishing for a wider field of view and less vignette.

With this in mind, would I get significantly better performance out of the lumix pancake lens? Does it autofocus internally too? Is the 30x eyepiece the only way to go to get this right?

Here's my first shot taken - a long-billed curlew. I'm happy to get something so easily, but it is heavily cropped, but probably 200 meters away!
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Old Wednesday 29th December 2010, 21:53   #339
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Hi from Scotland Bobobirder, I have the exact same set up as you, and founfd the vignetting a problem until I sorted out the aspect ratio etc.

I use the G1 on the following settings so give it a try:

Aspect ratio - 16:9
Picture size - L
Ex.Opt Zoom - On
Digital zoom - either 2x or 4x (2x is better i find)

Keep zoom on telescope low and the camera zoom up to about 35mm. I also use the swaro DCA adapter

With these settings I get very little vignetting and dont do a lot of cropping for that reason.

Check out my blog and web page gallery.

If you need anymore info please feel free to ask, but if you have the cash the pancake lens is the way to go.

Regards

Dave
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Old Thursday 30th December 2010, 02:18   #340
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Hi from Scotland Bobobirder, I have the exact same set up as you, and founfd the vignetting a problem until I sorted out the aspect ratio etc.

I use the G1 on the following settings so give it a try:

Aspect ratio - 16:9
Picture size - L
Ex.Opt Zoom - On
Digital zoom - either 2x or 4x (2x is better i find)

Keep zoom on telescope low and the camera zoom up to about 35mm. I also use the swaro DCA adapter
Thanks for the feedback, Dave. I can't get the digital zoom or extended digital zoom to work with RAW format without vignettes. It works fine for JPEGs, but JPEGs on the G1 aren't great.These digital zoom techniques simply reduce the effective resolution. RAW just delivers what the sensor picks up. This allows a lot more flexibility as JPEG is a compressed lossy format. Compare an original RAW with a JPEG without modification and you'll see what I mean. Perhaps the JPEG algorithm on the G1 isn't great, I don't know.

I realized today that the issue is that DCA Zoom keeps the G1 kit lens a bit too far from the 20-60x eyepiece for the G1. If you hold teh G1 with kit lens up close by hand, you can eliminate the vignette even in RAW. Next I'm going to measure how much closer it needs to be and see if I can eliminate the vignette at all zooms and find to what the lens zoom needs to be set to achieve that and if it varies.

It looks like the DCA could be modified by trimming the length of the outer female section and cutting away a similar amount from the step on the male piece.

Before I go to that trouble, I'm wondering if anyone has tried the Panasonic Lumix 20mm f1.7 ASPH "pancake" lens. My thinking is that the short but wide lens would not only reduce vignetting, and let in more light, but also lower the weight and the lever arm on the scope. The kit lens and G1 plus the DCA all hanging off the scope makes it quite floppy. Having a balance rail seems mandatory, but I've already dropped a wad of cash and trying to make progress without more expensive toys. I could sell the kit lens and buy the pancake if that would be all I need, but I fear it won't be so easy. The alternative is to cut down the DCA and buy (or build) a balance rail and stick with the 12-45 kit lens. In that case, I'm committed. My goal is to not lose resolution or view. Better said, I want to use the full RAW image capture and retain the maximum field of view of the scope and eyepiece. Any suggestions appreciated.

Bob

PS: The attached shows a JPEG made from the original RAW file taken in relatively low light and maybe 150 meters at 60x zoom on the eye piece and max focal length of 45mm on the lens with 800 ISO, 1/500 and f 5.6. The second image is only cropped and zoomed. This was a long shot with extreme zoom and low light late in the day (and rig balanced only on my car window). Nonetheless, I was happy to get the belted kingfisher shot, even though of such poor quality. I'm wondering what the pancake and or the 30x eyepiece could have done to improve this tough image? I don't expect miracles and at a point it's really about getting closer to the birds in better light and getting the shot you really want. My goal is to get descent tools first then spend plenty of time to learn to use them. That's the lasting fun!
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Old Thursday 30th December 2010, 20:44   #341
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Next I'm going to measure how much closer it needs to be and see if I can eliminate the vignette at all zooms and find to what the lens zoom needs to be set to achieve that and if it varies.
For those looking at using a G1 for a Swaro scope, here's the low down on vignettes with the DCA and 20-60x eyepiece. I'm guessing the % of vignette at each eyepiece magnification on a Swaro STS 80 HD scope and adjusting the kit lens focal length to minimize it. This is using an unmodified DCA Zoom adapter and the supplied 52mm filter thread adapter.

My results show that at 20x & 30x the DCA does as good a job as you can get by hand, with about 5% and 10% loss to vignete respectively. At 40x, the loss is maybe 25% with the DCA but only 10% if held in best position! At 50x it's 15% loss with DCA and 5% by hand. At 60x it's about 10% with DCA and less than 2% by hand. I can share photos of this if anyone is interested.

Bottom line is that with the G1 with kit lens, 20-60x zoom on the 80mm Swaro scope, and the DCA Zoom adapter, you get the best performance with only 5% loss due to vignette at the lowest 20x magnification, but a reasonable 10% loss at 60x. Forget using ranges in between. Not a terrible compromise, but if you want to use RAW on the G1 you will have vignetting because RAW will not allow the use of digital zoom.

You can dramatically improve the higher magnification performance by modification of the DCA, but you would no doubt suffer increased loss in the lower X ranges by having the lens exit pupil too close.

The good news is that the DCA Zoom is a pretty darn good compromise as is for this rig. If you want to do better, you'll need two DCA adapters. One as is from factory and then one that is shorter. That is not ideal.

A fixed 30x eyepiece would certainly be a better solution and less to futz with in the field, though it would provide less flexibility.

The DCA Zoom will set you back about $250 so you are well on the way to a new lens. Can anyone with experience using the pancake lens with a G1 and Swarovski scope please enlighten us? One additional thing I don't like about the G1 kit lens is the zoom tends to drift in use, so you have to stay on top of that. Would the pancake be better there?

Bob
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Old Saturday 1st January 2011, 11:22   #342
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Hello Bob.
I have been doing a lot of testing with my Kowa /GI setup.I fear that you will always have vignetting problems using a zoom lens on the Swarvo scope.I have bought the Lumix pancake and the luminosity is superior to the kit lens BUT !!!!! no auto focus.
My preferred set-up at the moment (and i don't know whether it will help) is the 25x fixed ler lens from Kowa and the kit lens.You get significantly more focal length and the vignetting only begins at the maximum zoom on the kit lens.A superb combination and as Neil has said earlier in the thread,the Auto focus is an invaluable tool.In conclusion the only road to go is using either 25x or 30x fixed eyepieces,i hate cropping images.Hope this helps.Happy new year Bob.Ps i also use the DA3 stabilising system from Kowa and the Panasonic electronic cable release.these tools have improved my images.No camera shake whatsoever BUT!!!!! very cumbersome in the field.
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Old Saturday 1st January 2011, 11:40   #343
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Brian,

I do not understand when you say no autofocus with the 20mm pancake lens. I use it with my Xeiss scope and it certainly does autofocus. Have I missed something?
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Old Saturday 1st January 2011, 15:06   #344
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Thank you. A fixed eyepiece may hold the better answer. At the least, more light and a wider field of view making cropping less painful if still needed. It also would mean only one zoom in the mix (with the G1 kit lens). I also have to say that the loss of resolution at higher magnifications on the zoom eyepiece is problematic. 30x does seem about right for maximum relevant light on the G1 sensor for my scope anyway. Of course for me, with the investment in a DCA zoom adapter and the 20-60x eyepiece, I'm stuck.

The pancake lens remains attractive. It does support AFS (autofocus single) but not AFC which provides continuous focus. The AFC is great for subjects moving to or fro and also for bursts, but so far I have preferred holding the shutter down half way to focus and then I work on composition with focus set.

The pancake also does not support OIS (optical image stabilization). Is that a signifiant loss when digiscoping?

Bob
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Old Saturday 1st January 2011, 16:44   #345
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I do not think the OIS is a great loss because the camera will be mounted on a tripod for digiscoping. But I agree, it would not really work for birds in flight. Personally, I do not try to digiscope birds in flight anyway. I prefer to use the camera with a zoom telephoto lens.
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Old Saturday 1st January 2011, 19:01   #346
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Telephoto for birds in flight would be good. I'm still such a novice birder that I find it difficult to anticipate what to have at the ready and when. Already, the scope tripod, digiscope camera, and binoculars with requisite covers, straps and cases provides plenty to juggle...

I plan todo a bit of testing on the benefit of OIS for digiscoping with the G1.
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Old Wednesday 5th January 2011, 15:19   #347
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Hi Neil
I have the G1 And the ats Swarovski scope and the DCA Adaptor i have tried it and i get vigetting at all focal positions

Many Thanks Richard
P.S.I am using the 30 times eyepeice
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Old Thursday 6th January 2011, 14:52   #348
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After further consideration, I think the goal is to configure the camera to maximize the field of view and resolution of the scope. In other words, you want the camera to not lose any of the image size of information delivered by the scope. Ideally, the corner of the camera's image rectangle would be sized to just touch the circle of maximum view from the scope so you get as much as possible and still a rectangular image. The resolution of this image from the camera would be adequate to capture the full resolution from the scope.

Given the actual resolution of the scope, your 30x eyepiece may simplify things somewhat. If you don't need to use RAW format images, you can do as Len Blumen suggests and use the digital zoom.

I got a clue about this when I have been unable to focus my scope at the highest resolution so as to get significantly more detail from far away. I've learned it isn't the camera, but the scope that is the limiter here.

With my 20-60x eyepiece, I did a test to better understand resolution. I understand that the scope really can't resolve even 30x and that at 60x, it's just making the same details bigger and not showing more detail. This is helpful, but I'm after details like edges of feathers, etc. I found a rectangular road sign about 2000 meters away and took a shot of it at best camera settings at both 30x and 60x on the eyepiece. The 30x shot had the sign much smaller or course so I zoomed it with my computer to the same size as that of the 60x. Then with each image the same size, kind of like digital zoom, I then studied the images. The result is what I would have expected before I started to study optics, the 60x had more detail by about twice. This implies that the camera was able to get more detail.

What I think we need to understand is how to determine the max capabilities of a scope in terms of resolution and image size and then use that to somehow define what the camera has to do to not be the limiter. I suspect that the settings Len Blumen uses above may be just fine (if you don't want RAW). His photos are fantastic so that provides proof.

Bob

Last edited by BoboBirder : Thursday 6th January 2011 at 14:55.
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Old Friday 7th January 2011, 09:38   #349
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Hi Neil
I have the G1 And the ats Swarovski scope and the DCA Adaptor i have tried it and i get vigetting at all focal positions

Many Thanks Richard
P.S.I am using the 30 times eyepeice
I'm not at home at the moment so I can't check my records but you should be able to get unvignetted views from 18 - 24 mm.
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Old Friday 7th January 2011, 13:31   #350
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Hi Neil
I have the G1 And the ats Swarovski scope and the DCA Adaptor i have tried it and i get vigetting at all focal positions

Many Thanks Richard
P.S.I am using the 30 times eyepeice
I have the same scope, camera and eyepiece as you and use both DCA & DCB adapter and experience very little vignetting
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