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Black Kite or Buzzard? (1 Viewer)

Davs Teh,

A difficult one to be 100% certain, but I would agree with Black Kite, for these reasons:
1. the body shape looks too long and slender for a Buzzard, with a long, protuding head and a long tail, and lacking the heavy chest of a Buzzard,
2. the sudden change in tone between the pale bases of the primaries, to the less pale bases of the secondaries - on a Buzzard this would be a gradual darkening across several feathers, not a change at one feather,
3. the underwing coverts are uniformly dark - this is typical of Black Kite, but very rare if ever in Buzzard (and as far as I know, never in Rough-legged Buzzard, except for the dark form of the N American race),
4. the tail does appear to be rather square, with the hint of a notch and almost pointed corners; even with the tail this closed, on a Buzzard the corners would be less sharp

Michael
 
I can't make a call, just a couple of comments. We don't see any dark Common Buzzards here in Japan, but we got lots and lots of Black Kites. To me, our tails do seem yet longer, and also more angular at the corners, even when folded as this one's is. More interesting is the light area on the underwings. Our Black Kites show three distinct intensities-- the whitest on the bases of the outer (5 or) 6 primaries, then markedly creamier on the inner primaries and a third, duller tone on the rest of the trailing edge underside.

In your photo, the whole light part of the underwing seems much of a single tone, or at most a two-tone of primaries vs. secondaries. This does resemble a North American dark phase Rough-leg, but I would have thought we would be able to see something of a tail pattern even at this angle and distance, either the terminal/sub-terminal banding or the light base. And, as Michael says, the divisions between tones are quite discrete.

I've taken a look through your Jonsson Europe guide just now-- you've got a lot of dark raptors, don't you! I'm looking forward to the final guess.

Good birding,
 
Hi Charles,

I don't know if it would make any difference, that your Black Kites are subspecies lineatus, rather than migrans. The only info I have access to on lineatus is that it is larger than migrans, no info on details of the tail, etc.

Michael
 
I have lightened up the picture (but not posted it here for copyright reasons) and there is no sign of any detail around the carpal joints which should show even with a dark phase Common Buzzard. There seems just to be this very distinctive cut off of the lighter rear part of the wing (primaries generally). The overall shape doesn't look quite right for Common Buzzard so of the two options, I would go for the Kite.


Colin
 
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It looks like a dark-phase Honey Buzzard to me - smallish, protruding head and long-ish slim tail. The wings are too narrow for Common Buzzrd and not 'angular' enough for a Black kite (otr Red for that matter). The pale primaries and to a lesser extent secondaries are consistant with Honey Buzzrd.
Yes, it's a Honey Buzzard.
 
Not a raptor expert but would agree with CJW if I had to choose! Wings look too broad for Black Kite and what colouring I can make out seems to fit Honey Buzz best. However one point, surely the photographer got better views than this? A couple of seconds view of its tail as it wheeled or banked in the sky should have enabled it to be ID'd as Black Kite or not, so maybe it is a Black Kite after all!
 
I'm sticking with Honey Buzzard (pernis apivorus). You can see the end of the tail and it is square ended, Black Kite would still show a fairly obvious cleft/fork - especially as the tail isn't fanned.
 
I would say that the picture is that of a juvenile Honey Buzzard.
In contrast to adults,juvenile Honey Buzzards have more black
on their fingered wing-tips,and a few more underwing bars.Both
the underwings and tail are more darkly shaded than on adults.
making the pattern of both slightly less clear-cut.
Toodle Pip
Jeff Taylor
 
Davs Teh,

The large flight photo in the new set clearly shows a Black Kite triangular tail.

PS - very nice website, but it doesn't work in Netscape!

CJW, Jeff, One major factor against Honey Buzzard: the date! It was photo'd on 13th April - any self-respecting Honey Buzzard would still be in Africa then! An early date for a Black Kite too, but far from unique for that.

Michael
 
I am still sticking with Juvenile Honey Buzzard,Looked at the other
pictures and still say it's Honey Buzzard.Wings are to short for
Buzzard,in Honey Buzzard the wings bulge at the sides,so they
are broadest in the middle.Sometimes the wings appear to"pinch"
in where they meet the tail.
Jeff Taylor
 
Another point against Honey Buzzard: HBs always have at least some barring on the primaries and secondaries; this bird has none, and I reckon the photos are clear enough to exclude the possibility that the absence of barring is genuine, and not a fault of the distance of the bird, etc, making them hard to see.

Michael
 
It's a Honey Buzzard, Michael.
a) The largest flight shot clearly shows barring across the primaries.
b) There is way too much white/pale at the base of the primaries and also on the secondaries.
c) The wingshape is all wrong for Black Kite.
d) The time of year is completely irrelevant.
e) The bird appears to be soaring with it's wings held 'flat'.
f) The head is disproportionately small to the body (especially visible in the perched photo).
 
I'm no expert but I have seen hundreds of black kites and I don't think it is one. The wings always look thinner, flexible and often angled at the carpal joint. Nor does the tail look right to me. But I'm not sure what it is!
 
Yep totally agree with cjw.Take a look at the wing flight!
Honey Buzzards always look flat winged,like a glider,so even when soaring in a thermal,their wings don't angle upwards in a
shallow "V" like a buzzards.If anything the wings are actually held
slightly bowed,making a smooth arch from wing-tip to wing-tip,
or if you like,an inverted very shallow "V"

Jeff Taylor
 
OK, you've convinced me, Honey Buzzard.

Actually I think what convinced me more than anything, looking at the photos again, there really is much too much of a dark trailing edge to the wing for Black Kite, which no-one has mentioned yet

Presumably though Denmark's earliest ever, by about 3-4 weeks?

Wondering how its managing to feed, or would it just be surviving on stored fat reserves? (knowing that raptors can survive amazingly long without food!)

Michael
 
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YIPEEEEE! Me & CJW where right all along.Only joking Micheal this
is what BirdForum is all about Sharing & recieving Information.

Kind Regards
Jeff Taylor
 
We got there in the end, with a little gentle persuasion.
 

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