Beck Kassel Tordalk 22x80 - Worth It? (1 Viewer)

Hi,

I've just found this forum - what an excellent resource and hang-out!

So my story...

When I was a kid, growing up in the 70’s, I spent may hours with my Grandad gazing through his fantastic binoculars. Whilst he had several pairs, the ones that stick in my memory (probably because they seemed so huge and heavy to a 10 year old, but also because they enabled me to see the furthest and had, from what I recall, a magnificent clear, sharp and bright image), were the German made Beck Kassells. Found memories.

Well, the decades have passed and only now (with more time on my hands), am I feeling the need to obtain a really decent pair of binoculars. I would like to find a pair just like the ones I used when I was a kid.

Having done some research, I’m sure they were the Beck Kassel Tordalk 22x80 model.
During the course of the last 18 months I’ve seen a few pairs for sale, but for one reason or other I’ve missed the boat on those sales (or they were in poor condition).

However, I’ve now seen a pair up on eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Old-Binoc...336114?hash=item2cc701aa32:g:yZ0AAOSwNmxZroc2), and I wanted some advice from those who are undoubtedly more knowledgable than me on the subject of vintage binoculars.

My questions are (having seen prices ranging from approx £350 2nd hand/private seller to £1250 refurbished/trade seller), what is a reasonable price to pay? I am happy to pay good money for a good condition pair, but I also don’t want to get ripped off.
Is there somewhere that lists values of these vintage optics?

Does anyone here have experience of the older binoculars and values, etc? From what I’ve read, these Beck Kassells are well regarded and hard to come by.

The pair that I’ve seen have a Buy it Now price of £499, which sounds good to me and they look to be in overall v.good condition.

Any thoughts or feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Don

Hi Don,
Welcome.

If you wear glasses the eye relief may not be large enough, although I don't know what it is.
Also it may be heavy and need a tripod or monopod.
It may also need collimation and/or have moisture effects inside (East Coast Binocular Repairs maybe).

I used a selected Japanese 20x80 Celestron for years hand held, but I was younger.

There are quite good Japanese 20x80s which would have a guarantee.

I don't know if the price is fair or the FOV size.

You may not be far from the seller, so maybe look at it first.

The Beck 22x80 Tordalk seems to be high quality and if a mentioned 1720g weight is accurate, lightweight. Magnesium alloy?

I don't know what the field size is.

A Celestron 20x80 cheapie from China is no comparison and I would avoid these.

However, some Japanese 70mm and 80mm binoculars are good if tested and a good example bought.

I have a Hertel and Reuss 60mm spotter, which had considerable internal fungus, so I would check the 22x80 before buying.
Some sources say Hertel and Reuss took over Beck.

22x80 is ideal for me, although heavy for me nowadays. I'd quite fancy one myself if in top shape.

Hi Binastro,

Thanks for your responses.

So, my dilemma now is, do I go for these binos or spend my money on a lovely 50mm Leica lens that I've seen?!

The Tordalks have a particular relevance for me (of days gone by), however the lens is the right price and would finish off my wish list of the last ten years.

I'm not sure how often vintage binoculars like the Tordalks (especially in such good condition), come on to the market, because this is not my area of expertise.
I've seen 2 or 3 pairs for sale during the last couple of years, but the time wasn't right financially for me - perhaps its just a case of knowing where to find them?

Maybe I'll just take my chances with the eBay auction and what will be will be.
The allure of the Leica is strong however

:eek!: Decisions decisions!

DJ

Hi,

first of all, welcome to birdforum!

The CBS Tordalk series were well regarded in astro circles back in the days and the one example in 11x80 I almost bought offered a good view in the working tube. Unfortunately it was badly out of collimation and one prism seemed to be loose plus the price was too high for a damaged unit, so I didn't buy it.

Regarding the 22x80 example you are looking at, please remember that you will not be able to hand-hold it, so you will need a tripod and holder. Also looking at the images of the objective lenses in the ebay link I have some doubts about white feathery structures at the edges - they look like fungus to me.

@binastro: yes, CBS was taken over by Hertel & Reuss in 1985 and the Tordalk was sold under their label. It seems the later examples were not so great.

Joachim

If you want to have a pair for nostalgic reasons and don't mind spending more to clean up that severe case of fungus then there's nothing to stop you, I would think.

Just be aware that even when fully restored, they are a few generations behind on coatings and from the look of the eyepieces I expect a narrow field of view and a very short eye relief.

Hi Chaps,

Thanks for your input - all comments appreciated.

To be fair the fungus doesn't look very severe to me (and I've studied the images at length). There's no denying there's something going on there, but having contacted the seller I'm assured that there's no implications to the image view.
Having looked at a previous pair or two, these really are in excellent order for 50 year old binos.

I'm edging closer, but still the Leica bug is nibbling at my ankles!

Watch this space...

DJ

Hi,

the problem is that fungus tends to grow... and in a worst case scenario, spread to other optics stored close by...

Joachim

Hi Joachim,

Yes, I understand what you are saying, and whilst that makes logical sense the reality in my experience has been that the pace of such growth is glacial.

I've had a pair of Hilkinson Saturns 30x80 for 20 years with a similar level of intrusion and i'll be damned if I've seen any increase during that time (they've been kept well). Plus it makes absolutely no difference to the image and it can also be rectified if required.

It is a consideration, especially as these Tordalks are a considerable step up in quality and engineering, but I'm satisfied that they are pretty genuine.

I suppose there are always going to be trade offs when procuring vintage glass, but I've heard of some people purchasing the right makes and models with a view to future values, in addition to the satisfaction of owning them.

Maybe it's just me - I do admit to having a bit of a vintage optics bug!

DJ

It looks like it's not getting any bids at the starting price of £149, so they could be yours for a reasonable price.

Mark9473 said:

It looks like it's not getting any bids at the starting price of £149, so they could be yours for a reasonable price.

Click to expand...

Hi,

it also says minimum bid not reached - so it's not going to go for 150 quid... over here in germany very good examples of Tordalks can be had for 350€ or so with a bit of patience.

Joachim

There is indeed a great deal of satisfaction to be had in using a really decent pair of binoculars, but it might be a good idea to find an example of the specific pair you're considering and then comparing it to a modern equivalent. Things have moved on technologically from your grandfather's day and you may be surprised at how much brighter and clearer a modern instrument is. Optical quality may be somewhat less important if your main motivation for purchasing binoculars is nostalgia, but needs to be considered if you intend to spend significant time actually looking through them. Which begs the question - what do you intend to use them for? If it's for astronomy you may get more informed opinions posting at the Cloudy Nights forum which specialises in it. For daytime viewing something like a 22x80 will be limited by having to be used on a tripod or similar. You may well get more enjoyment from a quality pair of binoculars which can be hand-held and which you can bring along on walks, holidays, etc.

What a reasonable price to pay is - from my limited experience the market seems to be dictated more by demand, which can fluctuate (in reading up about Bushnell Rangemasters it seems Ebay prices of these went up and down quite a bit at one time). I'm somewhat dubious about purchasing binoculars "with a view to future values". It may be different in the world of camera lenses, but I doubt many binoculars, past, present or future, are true investments unless you're lucky enough to come across a classic binocular in a charity shop, boot sale or some similar situation. My recommendation would be to educate yourself to the greatest extent possible (both reading up and gaining hands-on knowledge), decide what you're willing to pay, and if/when you do, treat any appreciation in their value as a bonus.

If 22X is your preference I'd buy a gray market Nixon 20x56 M5. Otherwise, the 16x56 M5 or even the Vortex 15x56 Vulture which can be found for less than some ask for an old Tordalk. For the sake of nostalgia CBS/Beck Tordalk are nice to use.

I have the Planet 22x80, which preceded the Tordalk that was introduced 1963. As well the Planet production overlapped the Tordalk. The main notable difference is that some time later the Tordalk was equipped w/2nd focus wheel on aft end of hinge pin. Body/barrels on 11/15/22x80 apparently are the same dimensions as well as the Planet which I've only seen in 22x80.

My 22x80 LW Planet weighs 1470 grams, w/o strap, rubber eyecups or the rubber objective bumpers. This from a physician beam scale. The Oberwerk LW 20x80, w/front armour & plastic objective end caps removed, is just shy of 1700 grams. It is FMC and available now w/hard case for 200USD. For 140USD you can have the 11x70 or 15x70 at 3lbs/1360grams. Lose the trim rings & all armour for weight reduction of perhaps 3-4oz/85-114gm.

Not the same cool factor, but it all depends on what you want.

ETA: I've seen these listed as Rare German Military bins for $1500 on Ebay. They didn't sell and I presented inquiries to the owner. He claimed no SN, though would not produce pic of left side end cap, that he didn't know how many were produced, but it couldn't have been more than 100 and they were rare. Although he purchased these 'military' bins new. I'm not sure how soon after that he moved to New Jersey, signing up to Ebay as CaponeXXXX.

In the states they are scarce, yet this 'rare' marketing ploy on auction sites is beyond threadbare. It is common for these to be hawked for 500USD & up. Personally I consider that, if immaculate w/case, to be twice the value. They are unusual & as a history niche bin interesting. I prefer the Obie 20x80 FMC.

As always YMMV ...

The 4lb/1814gm 20x80 LW Oberwerk w/both barrels armour pieces, spacers and trim rings removed, leaving rubber eyecups and body armour, are now 3lb 6oz/3.375lb/60oz/1531gm.

In all fairness the Planet 22x80 weighs in at 1470gm, has a wider body, 9"/23cm, und shorter barrels, Vs. 8.625"/22cm [stripped w/o trim rings], oculars collapsed 10.25"/26cm Vs. 12"/30.5cm. The barrels attaching to the body are of larger diameter than the Obie. The focus wheel is marked w/0 - + w/20 vertical marks & two 5 markers one on each - + side. Focus to infinity is CCW w/ 1.125 lock to lock turn.

One barrel is an early light blue single coat w/other being a later dark blue single coat. This cannot be distinguished from the coated oculars. I relocated the darker blue coated barrel to match me intraocular lens implant in dominant eye.

The 3.63mm EP is fine for me viewing day skies. Likewise the coatings, that cannot compare w/recent bins, do alright in bright skies. I'll wager the lenses are better in the Beck. I hold the end of the right barrel w/strong hand utilizing weak hand to focus. The left hand focusing CCW is the same as the right hand focusing CW. Think about it.

The Made in England leather case, Edward Marcus ltd. bin importer, is substantial and the rubber objective bumpers help keep the bins secured. I've seen two other cases Made in Germany. The rubber bumpers also work well when placing the bins on a table or against double pane glass. To me knowledge they never were dust covers.

Minimum focus of 13m/43' w/Obie 25m/84'. ER: For me to get the full effect I'm shoving eyeballs in to around 6.5mm w/most of the view left at 10mm Vs. 18mm for the Obie. Should you require spectacles you're left w/little option.

Now you known as much as me which is precious little.