• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

To kill or not to kill? (1 Viewer)

Even though I can see both sides of the story if cats are a problem they should be dealt with by the proper authority and through the right channels. Basically a case of taking the law into ones hands.
 
No one wants animals to suffer but considering half the US population blast native birds and animals (and even fellow maniac gunmen if you think of Dick Cheney)

Didn't Dubya himself shoot a killdeer a number of years ago? Big man that he is.

I think the truth of the matter here is that we can't as individuals go around killing the animals we don't like, that would be carte blanche for all kinds of half-baked lethal conservation measures. If this character thought the cat was a problem he really ought to have exhausted all other routes for action and involved a recognised conservation body.

On another bulletin board I remember a post from a chap complaining about the drop in songbird numbers who was quite proud about the nights he spent randomly blasting a shotgun into a winter crow roost.
Real conservationists really ought to set a better tone.

Anyway, as it happens, the judge declared a mistrail.
 
I really object to the comment that 50% of US Citizen hunt- that is a wild and prejudiced exaggeration.

Upland hunting is particularly obnoxious to me. Dogs are used to find birds (usually recently released), they are flushed and then blasted.

I live in Pennsylvania, a northeastern state which is approx 60% forest, but it isn't it is re-forest. The ecosystem will never be what it was and like it or not feral cats are part of it. It is easy and perhaps knowable to clean an island of rats, but a continent of feral cats, how would it be done and what consequences.

The law of unintended consequences applies.

Mike
 
Does that go for smallpox virus, malaria parasite, fleas, cockroaches in your dinner too? Or just cute fluffy creatures?

Not sure that really needs me to answer it as I can't imagine anyone sane wanting to free smallpox virus or malaria parasite into the general population of the world!

I posted my reply in a week when life seems especially precious to me having just lost a very dear friend and maybe because of that it came over even more soft than I usually am.

I still think if people take the law into their own hands and kill what they don't like it makes a sad world.

As for cockroaches in my dinner, I don't have them I'm a veggie! LOL
 
Here is an interesting little article brought to my attention n the New York times on a birder facing up to 2 years in jail for killing a cat to protect some Piping Plovers

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/14/us/14cats.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Sean
My view is that it is never right to kill a wild animal for behaving naturally. Cats (even if the 'owner' thinks otherwise) are always wild animals.
By all means use other methods to separate the cat from the birds.
Alan
 
My view is that it is never right to kill a wild animal for behaving naturally. Cats (even if the 'owner' thinks otherwise) are always wild animals.
By all means use other methods to separate the cat from the birds.
Alan

Domestic cats are no more wild animals than cows in fields or sheep on fells. World wide they are a conservation nightmare not far behind the rats we have taken to islands everywhere.

By all means use other methods to separate the cat from its head.

John
 
Good luck to him!

Can I suggest something?

Bring to court the person who "cared" for the cat for harming piping plovers (one: cruelty to animals - cat doesn't kill painlessly and two: threat to endangered species). I hope this stops future incidents.

BTW, is it possible? Proving that anybody who feeds feral cats is responsible for havoc they do to birds in the neighborhood?
 
His actions seem perfectly justifiable to protect an endangered species. Cats are another human induced plague on the environment.

I'm sick to death of the neighbors cats killing the birds in my back yard. At least my two pairs of cardinals are still around.
 
Domesticated cats should be controlled by their owners, as dogs are, the point is we all know that this is easier said than done. This is like when feisty dogs bite siblings because of jelousy and lack of attention. The owner has to monitor their pet continually

Normally dogs are put to sleep when they become a threat like this.

An uncontrolled cat killing rare species has to be removed, but this does not necessarily mean being killed. A long drive would do, especially if stray. Also killing a cat by bullet is rather inhumane and I am sure there are better methods. In the end, cats, dogs and birds all have their animal instincts
 
Didn't think the thread wold produce so much interest.

For my part..I hate cats and love birds...but I am not sure that it is reasonable behaviour for the head of a local audobon society even if it is in the interests of an endangered species.

I guess if he had tried all other options to try and protect them, or had got permission first, then no problem fire away.

Whatever two years in jail is ridiculous..it should be a fine at best.

In the wider context, if there are too many feral cats or dogs in an area, then the appropriate authorities shuld be informed.

Personally I think we should imprint all domemstic cats to birds at birth..so that they no longer pose a threat..and just to be sure fit all of them with huge bells!

If a neighbours cat were to be a threat to birds in my garden (immaterial right now as I live in an apartment) then I would take appropriate action!

Sean
 
but a continent of feral cats, how would it be done

trapping, shooting and stricter control on cat ownership/realeasing. You don't have a feral dog population anymore, do you?



an introduced predator removed, and a glut of furry hats on the market?



such as? Apart from an absence of feral cats?

They are a part of the eco-system as degraded as it is. The problem is not because people keep letting "Muffy" loose. There are 70,000,000 feral cats in the US and I suspect that estimate is low. It is a self-sustaining population. I would love to get rid of them, but when the rodent population increases, will natural controls adapt quickly enough or will poison be used.

A lunatic firing a gun on a public beach (how this thread began) is not much of a well reasoned solution.

Mike



Mike
 
Last edited:
BTW, is it possible? Proving that anybody who feeds feral cats is responsible for havoc they do to birds in the neighborhood?

I think, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, that if someone is feeding feral cats and they become a nuisance (in UK, this is) then they are served with a court order barring them from doing so, and continual breaches will see them finedand possibly imprisoned. I know of people who have been evicted from council properties for feeding birds, crazy though it seems, it does happen. Especially those people who encourage all the feral pigeons, because of the mess they make. I know of someone in Bournemouth that has feral cats nearby and they put food out for them, it was originally 2 or 3 cats, but there are about 15 now!! As I feed the foxes here it would hypocritical of me to say anything to them, but I do think that the cats are rather numerous now. She would be very upset if the council came and culled them.
 
Does anyone know if any control program for feral cats has proved effective in reducing populations? Effective programs with other introduced predators? What changes beneficial and not? Guess I will try google

Probably not a good question, geography and reproduction rates probably vary result.

Mike
 
I live in Houston, Galveston is a short drive away, and this has been in the news almost daily. The trial ended with a deadlocked jury and he will not be retried. The man who killed the cat has received many death threats over this. Hopefully he can move on with his life without any problems.
 
a feral cat is an introduced species causing as much harm as the rat... so ERADICATE!

As are white humans to the US not native, and it is they that are the true threats to Piping Plovers. This species is endangered not due to the presence of feral cats, but (a) due to habitat destruction and pollution and (b) due to human activities on their nesting beaches.

Note the below text, the word cat is not mentioned. Perhaps this guy could have better concentrated his efforts on these true threats, his actions it would seem have broken a law and, moreover, dealt Piping Plover conservation a massive P.R. shot in the foot. Imagine if some campaign is launched in that area to try and remove certain beach areas from public access, etc - local support would be required and is hardly likely to have been endeared by the memories of a campaign headed by someone that leaves a cat slowly dying. Like cats or not, some cowboy taking it upon himself to become the local feline sheriff is not the way to go.




THREATS FROM NONMOTORIZED BEACH ACTIVITIES

Sandy beaches that provide nesting habitat for piping plovers are also attractive recreational habitats for people and their pets. Nonmotorized recreational activities can be a source of both direct mortality and harassment of piping plovers. Pedestrians on beaches may crush eggs (Burger 1987b, Hill 1988, Shaffer and Laporte 1992, Cape Cod National Seashore 1993, Collazo et al. 1994). Unleashed dogs may chase plovers (McConnaughey et al. 1990), destroy nests (Hoopes et al. 1992), and kill chicks (Cairns and McLaren 1980).

Pedestrians may flush incubating plovers from nests, exposing eggs to avian predators or causing excessive cooling or heating of eggs. Repeated exposure of shorebird eggs on hot days may cause overheating, killing the embryos (Bergstrom 1991). Excessive cooling may kill embryos or retard their development, delaying hatching dates (Welty 1982). Pedestrians can also displace unfledged chicks (Strauss 1990, Burger 1991, Hoopes et al. 1992, Loegering 1992, Goldin 1993). Fireworks are highly disturbing to piping plovers (Howard et al. 1993). Plovers are particularly intolerant of kites, compared with pedestrians, dogs, and vehicles; biologists believe this may be because plovers perceive kites as potential avian predators (Hoopes et al. 1992).

THREATS FROM MOTOR VEHICLES

Unrestricted use of motorized vehicles on beaches is a serious threat to piping plovers and their habitats. Vehicles can crush eggs (Wilcox 1959; Tull 1984; Burger 1987b; Patterson et al. 1991; United States of America v. Breezy Point Cooperative, Inc., U.S. District Court, Eastern District of New York, Civil Action No. CV-90-2542, 1991; Shaffer and Laporte 1992), adults, and chicks. In Massachusetts and New York, biologists documented 14 incidents in which 18 chicks and 2 adults were killed by vehicles between 1989 and 1993 (Melvin et al. 1994). Goldin (1993) compiled records of 34 chick mortalities (30 on the Atlantic Coast and 4 on the Northern Great Plains) due to vehicles. Many biologists that monitor and manage piping plovers believe that many more chicks are killed by vehicles than are found and reported (Melvin et al. 1994). Beaches used by vehicles during nesting and brood-rearing periods generally have fewer breeding plovers than available nesting and feeding habitat can support. In contrast, plover abundance and productivity has increased on beaches where vehicle restrictions during chick-rearing periods have been combined with protection of nests from predators (Goldin 1993; S. Melvin, pers. comm., 1993).

Typical behaviors of piping plover chicks increase their vulnerability to vehicles. Chicks frequently move between the upper berm or foredune and feeding habitats in the wrack line and intertidal zone. These movements place chicks in the paths of vehicles driving along the berm or through the intertidal zone. Chicks stand in, walk, and run along tire ruts, and sometimes have difficulty crossing deep ruts or climbing out of them (Eddings et al. 1990, Strauss 1990, Howard et al. 1993). Chicks sometimes stand motionless or crouch as vehicles pass by, or do not move quickly enough to get out of the way (Tull 1984, Hoopes et al. 1992, Goldin 1993). Wire fencing placed around nests to deter predators (Rimmer and Deblinger 1990, Melvin et al. 1992) is ineffective in protecting chicks from vehicles because chicks typically leave the nest within a day after hatching and move extensively along the beach to feed (see Table 1).


Vehicles may also significantly degrade piping plover habitat or disrupt normal behavior patterns. They may harm or harass plovers by crushing wrack into the sand and making it unavailable as cover or a foraging substrate, by creating ruts that may trap or impede movements of chicks, and by preventing plovers from using habitat that is otherwise suitable (MacIvor 1990, Strauss 1990, Hoopes et al. 1992, Goldin 1993).
 
Last edited:
Warning! This thread is more than 16 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top