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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Can you buy a good roof prism for $200.00 or are you jerking our diopter Frank? (1 Viewer)

For the record, I was a marksman in the Air Training Corps with a .303" rifle (R.A.F. WW2 Enfield) requiring 5 hits out of a single clip of 5, on a target the size of an old penny, without the aid of telescopic sights. Subsequently I was in a Rifle Club, and have been clay pigeon shooting, so I'm not without some experience. I was referring to shooting on grouse moors, the birds having been disturbed, so shooters know where they're coming from and when. I can't comprehend how any civilized person would want to kill birds or animals for the "fun" of it. But hey, that's just me...


I grew up hunting. We ate all the meat, we were very lower middle class, almost poor. But we did not need that game. We hunted for fun mostly. It's often not cost effective. What I enjoyed as a kid was the adventure in diving into unknown woods and trails and the discovery that entailed. I loved the honing of my woods skills of tracking and moving slowly and noticing things, of being still and quiet; something my modern world and schooling deemed unimportant but was natural and important to my animal body. Then the trophy from the kill, which proved one had learned the lesson well. It's as old as humanity itself and still has a place if done with some respect.

Our actions in the modern world, driving a car, building a large home, buying multiple pairs of optics etc. have a much more dramatic effect on wildlife populations than any amount of hunting.

My two cents.
 
For the record, I was a marksman in the Air Training Corps with a .303" rifle (R.A.F. WW2 Enfield)...

Wow! Brings me back to my short spell in the Irish Army reserve, as a teenager in the seventies, spending hours taking apart and cleaning Lee Enfield Mk. II .303's. Never got to shoot one 'cos I got bored and left.
 
Now, back to binocularology

Jay, you obviously have done a bit of reading and observation on this topic.

I think reducing it to "you kill for recreation" merely because the hunter can afford to have someone else kill for them is a bit of an oversimplification to ultimately fit an agenda.

I kill and eat my food as often as possible. Its not as often as I like, nor as often as I purchase at the store. Non-hunters choose to pay others to kill animals for them. That is better how? The only people who have any leg to stand on regarding denigrating hunters (and hunting) are vegans. Even if its soft denigration such as couching it in "recreation only" as you did.

We all have opinions, and thats fine. Brush away the exterior and I have found that most anti-hunting/soft-antihunting is really about control. Namely, others wanting to control me and my actions. i think there is a bit much of that in all of our lives already.

OK, pseudo-rant off and now back to our regularly scheduled Bino-chat
 
Sancho, if you had fired an old Lee Enfield your abiding memory would be the recoil, since it had a kick like a mule. I remember our Flight Sergeant instructor telling us a cautionary tale of a careless cadet who broke his cheekbone. Even with care and experience, it was not unusual to have a sore shoulder after half a day's shooting. You'll know how heavy it was, and we used to do all our 'square bashing' (rifle drill) with it too. Built to last for ever. Still, good experience for wielding in later years a Nikon 8x42HG; light as a feather!
 
"I think reducing it to "you kill for recreation" ... is a bit of an oversimplification to ultimately fit an agenda."

No it is not over simplification. It is observation. Recreation is a set of play behaviors. I am merely calling it a play behavior, not a subsistence behavior. I would do the same observing any animal behavior,When a cat or orca "plays with its food", (mouse/seal, respectively), i call it play behavior also. Play is a complex behavior and is extremely complex in us. Calling something play, in and of its self, is not criticism.
But if calling something a play behavior is deemed criticism, so be it.

"Non-hunters choose to pay others to kill animals for them. That is better how? "

Did it say i was? I also stated that i was an omnivorous scavenger. I tried hunting when i was a sprout. The only reason i stopped was my first "kill" a (pheasant shot out of the air with a bow), was still alive when i got to it. It was apparent at that moment that i was enjoying the event, much more than the pheasant was. I found that form of recreation, for me, unpleasant.
When i was 14 i worked in a slaughterhouse for a summer. I am keenly aware of the path the meat i "scavenge" takes to my plate. And, the questions and implications thereof. I could say in rationalization, that the flesh i eat is from animals that are so inbreed and engineered, they could not survive on their own, (having worked as a vet assistant for a large animal practice, i can vouch for that). But to the vegan that would be a poor justification. I do not hunt because of a higher moral standard. I do not hunt for purely selfish reasons.
1. I do not hunt because emotionally I do not enjoy it.
2. I have other interests pulling on my time outside, that is, the study of animal behavior, among other things.

" I have found that most anti-hunting/soft-antihunting is really about control. Namely, others wanting to control me and my actions."

That is interesting. I would for one not be interested in controlling people re hunting. But i have found that whenever people disagree about these matters, it is not uncommon for one or both sides to see it as the other being controlling. It is enough to say, that whether or not people are "hunting" is not a matter of great concern for me.
But i do have a preference for accuracy.
 
Oh I do agree. Everyone grab a side and defend it. Like I said earlier I did hunt for fun and food and would do it again were the current situation in my country a little more like it was when I was a kid. Now I'm not interested for several reasons and prefer watching to shooting. I can and do still enjoy the stalk even if it's a sparrow.

There is a certain kind of hunter (rare) that I really like and respect and many more that I'd rather see not having access to a weapon when I'm out of doors.

I keep my guns now more because I don't trust my govt. or my fellow man.:-@
 
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...It is enough to say, that whether or not people are "hunting" is not a matter of great concern for me. .

Thanks for a reasoned response. I have found this to be the minority view of those who disagree with hunting, triply so in the NJ metro area.

And I agree re accuracy.
 
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Sancho, if you had fired an old Lee Enfield your abiding memory would be the recoil, since it had a kick like a mule.

I do remember spending one day in a trench, with gang of blokes, on a firing-range in the hills, putting up, taking down and pasting patches on targets for other blokes to shoot at. That was pretty scary, the noise and splinters of wood flying (from bullets hitting the posts of the targets) put me off all that military stuff. One of the "officers" (probably an insurance salesman, it was all very Dad's Army) got a splinter in his eye.
 
Yeah well, talk to some hunters and you'll see. I ask them if they eat the squirrels they shoot. They say, "Well, you can." I've had squirrel stew, complete with itty-bitty bones. I ate it. I said: "Huh??" I thought it was garbage. Eat mice why don't you.

I ask them if they eat the Mourning Doves they shoot. "Well, you can," they say. I haven't met anyone who did.

Crows? Forget about it. Just shoot 'em. "Varmints," according to the state.

I ask them if they eat the bears they shoot. They say, "Well, you could, but mainly it's a pic and a rug."

Deer, yup.

Wild turkey, yup.

But let's face it, most modern hunters just like to kill things. You want to read about a real hunter, try this: http://books.google.com/books?id=wZ...q="what can i say about hunting that"&f=false

I have nothing against hunting, if some reverence is involved, along with some actual necessity. Otherwise, you're just killing stuff. For shits and giggles.

M

PS: Sorry, I guess that link above is just a "preview." Good essay though: "Blood Sport," by none other than Edward Abbey. Check it out.
 
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The whole pro-hunting camp reminds me a bit of that scene in Full Metal Jacket, when Joker is talking to the press about his take on the VN war.

Something like [modified for this scenario], ''it's so great to be in the woods, feel the cool air and listen to the bird song, to quietly observe all the beauty that is nature, all the natural wonders........and then kill as many as you can........''
 
Yeah well, talk to some hunters and you'll see....


PS: Sorry, I guess that link above is just a "preview." Good essay though: "Blood Sport," by none other than Edward Abbey. Check it out.


I have little doubt we could play anecdotal evidence back and forth. Talk to some? You imply that those who hunt dont eat or use the prey?? Come on, thats just silly. I know exactly zero hunters who kill and leave the critter behind. Not one. I've been at it a while too. Sure, varmint prarie dog shooters blaze away, but few consider it hunting, most just plain shooting.

I dont come here to argue hunting, and I didnt bring it up, but I do notice that its those who dont like it that feel most free to make that point known first.

Dont like it? Dont do it. Claim moral superiority, fine if it makes you feel good about you. No one is to stop you. However the "I'm a scavenger" argument is as straw man. How many non-hunters only eat table scraps from dumpsters or road kill? 3? 4? 100? Otherwise, unless you are a vegan, you are simply paying someone else to kill animals for you. And maybe even <GASP> enjoy the cooking process to boot. And what of fish? Not cute enough to consider? Now that's just plain discrimination.

I suggest we move this back to Bino's or move it to PM's or a new OT thread.
 
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I have little doubt we could play anecdotal evidence back and forth. Talk to some? You imply that those who hunt dont eat or use the prey?? Come on, thats just silly. I know exactly zero hunters who kill and leave the critter behind. Not one. I've been at it a while too. Sure, varmint prarie dog shooters blaze away, but few consider it hunting, most just plain shooting.


I suggest we move this back to Bino's or move it to PM's or a new OT thread.

You eat coyote, do you?

You eat woodchuck?

You eat raccoon?

You eat squirrel?

You eat crow?

You eat Mourning Dove?

You eat bear?

You eat chipmunk? (Yup, a few years back someone killed a four-year-old (human) right here in PA--while shooting at a chipmunk.

"just plain shooting" I guess.

Some fun.
 
You eat coyote, do you?

You eat woodchuck?

You eat raccoon?

You eat squirrel?

You eat crow?

You eat Mourning Dove?

You eat bear?

You eat chipmunk? (Yup, a few years back someone killed a four-year-old (human) right here in PA--while shooting at a chipmunk.

"just plain shooting" I guess.

Some fun.


Back about 20 years ago I took a five week survival course in the High Desert of Eastern Oregon. It was based on the survival skills of the indigenous Paiute native americans of that area. Durning that time I hunted, killed, and ate many of the things on your list and more. As a kid hunting I ate plenty of squirrel and raccoon. I'll eat anything I kill and like it.

Finally I've given up the activity but I have nothing against some types of hunters but I do with some other types.

What I have the most trouble with however is the person who ignorantly sees everything in black and white, based on their own bias. Usually when you look closer they are hypocrites.
 
Noe there folks, lets just back awayand sit a spell. Ah, ...the UPS truck just brought me a pair of those 8x32 Sightrons. Mighty nice for the price and for the likes ah me.
 
The whole pro-hunting camp reminds me a bit of that scene in Full Metal Jacket, when Joker is talking to the press about his take on the VN war.

Something like [modified for this scenario], ''it's so great to be in the woods, feel the cool air and listen to the bird song, to quietly observe all the beauty that is nature, all the natural wonders........and then kill as many as you can........''

Looking at you from the other side of the fence I have to say I know just how you feel.

I hope Brock enjoyed pulling the flush handle.

It's amazing how you can derail a perfectly good thread if you yank a $200 diopter hard enough.

Time for the mods to close this I think.
 
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