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harrier id east coast (1 Viewer)

That's nice and all. And I don't necessarily disagree....but your original line of debate was towards Monty's...not hybrids. ;)

Owen

Not really - just challenging, as ever, those that 'proclaim' without substance or evidence. It could very well be a Pallid. Comments like 'if it had a dark cap, it would be perfect' make me laugh as it doesn't have a dark cap.

fwiw, whilst I can find Monties that show the dark area reaching the lower mandible, it seems to be restricted to darker juveniles overall. Ie, it is a good feature for Pallid. On it's own though? Well, I'd want more and despite what others say, this bird is at the poorly marked end of the range for Pallid and at the strongly marked end for Montagu's.

Send it to Forsman. I'm happy to agree with whatever he says.
 
Not really - just challenging, as ever, those that 'proclaim' without substance or evidence. It could very well be a Pallid. Comments like 'if it had a dark cap, it would be perfect' make me laugh as it doesn't have a dark cap.

fwiw, whilst I can find Monties that show the dark area reaching the lower mandible, it seems to be restricted to darker juveniles overall. Ie, it is a good feature for Pallid. On it's own though? Well, I'd want more and despite what others say, this bird is at the poorly marked end of the range for Pallid and at the strongly marked end for Montagu's.

Send it to Forsman. I'm happy to agree with whatever he says.

Yes, but the links of birds you posted saying the mask reached the bill...3 of them didn't even reach the gape. So are you challenging? Or are you just misinterpreting?

Owen
 
Not really - just challenging, as ever, those that 'proclaim' without substance or evidence. It could very well be a Pallid. Comments like 'if it had a dark cap, it would be perfect' make me laugh as it doesn't have a dark cap.

fwiw, whilst I can find Monties that show the dark area reaching the lower mandible, it seems to be restricted to darker juveniles overall. Ie, it is a good feature for Pallid. On it's own though? Well, I'd want more and despite what others say, this bird is at the poorly marked end of the range for Pallid and at the strongly marked end for Montagu's.

Send it to Forsman. I'm happy to agree with whatever he says.

Again I'd go as far to say that the face pattern, being to my eyes perfect for Pallid, is 'wrong' for Montagu's. I've still yet to see a Monty's with the facial disc patterning of the subject bird.

The bird in your earlier link with the wingtag seems to be labelled as a Pallid but is actually a Montagu's, as suggested earlier in the thread. A rather well marked individual, agreed.

Re hybrids, in recent years we have been seeing an increasing number of birds with intermediate characters as the range of Pallid extends westwards from Russia. Birds are now breeding annually in Finland and interbreeding has been recorded or suspected in Sweden and Norway.

In almost all cases, so far at least, the interbreeding has been between Hen and Pallid. The apparent hybrids turning up now annually in southern Sweden in autumn are, to my knowledge, intermediate between those two species.

Pallid x Montagu's hybrids would appear to be very much rarer and, indeed, much less documented online. I have yet to see a photographed putative juvenile Pallid x Montagu's, though seem to remember hearing of a mixed pair in Spain and one in the Netherlands in recent years. For sure, such a combination seems likely to occur as Pallid continues to expand its range into Europe and would complicate matters!

Given that our subject bird does not exhibit any direct hybrid characters, I think we should think twice about playing the hybrid card because it lacks as clear a collar as some Pallids.

Hybrids remain much rarer than the real thing, whether pure Hen, Pallid or Montagu's. Personally, it seems wisest to reserve the hybrid debate for birds that really are truly intermediate on a suite of characters, rather than for birds that fall within one species' variation, as the subject bird does.
 
I only posted two links and in both it did reach the gape?

And again, see plate 245...

The cheek patch on this bird approaches the gape but is fizzling out as it does so. And the eye mask is almost absent. This, along with plenty of white below, and more importantly above, the eye gives the docile look typical of Montagu's.

Bill size may also also a factor. This is only really possible to judge on sitting birds, but the bill of Pallid often appears slightly more robust and deeper based compared to Montagu's and no doubt contributes to the latter's 'weedier' facial impression contra Pallid's 'nastier' look.

This may well be subjective, but tends to work well for me when comparing birds both in the field and more especially online.
 
Again I'd go as far to say that the face pattern, being to my eyes perfect for Pallid, is 'wrong' for Montagu's. I've still yet to see a Monty's with the facial disc patterning of the subject bird.

The bird in your earlier link with the wingtag seems to be labelled as a Pallid but is actually a Montagu's, as suggested earlier in the thread. A rather well marked individual, agreed.

Re hybrids, in recent years we have been seeing an increasing number of birds with intermediate characters as the range of Pallid extends westwards from Russia. Birds are now breeding annually in Finland and interbreeding has been recorded or suspected in Sweden and Norway.

In almost all cases, so far at least, the interbreeding has been between Hen and Pallid. The apparent hybrids turning up now annually in southern Sweden in autumn are, to my knowledge, intermediate between those two species.

Pallid x Montagu's hybrids would appear to be very much rarer and, indeed, much less documented online. I have yet to see a photographed putative juvenile Pallid x Montagu's, though seem to remember hearing of a mixed pair in Spain and one in the Netherlands in recent years. For sure, such a combination seems likely to occur as Pallid continues to expand its range into Europe and would complicate matters!

Given that our subject bird does not exhibit any direct hybrid characters, I think we should think twice about playing the hybrid card because it lacks as clear a collar as some Pallids.

Hybrids remain much rarer than the real thing, whether pure Hen, Pallid or Montagu's. Personally, it seems wisest to reserve the hybrid debate for birds that really are truly intermediate on a suite of characters, rather than for birds that fall within one species' variation, as the subject bird does.

I agree. Why play the LRGE EGO "it's an intergrade" card when there's nothing to suggest a hybrid visible?

I get the caution between Pallid and Monty's. That's fair enough. And again I would expect it to go down as pyg/mac in the reports. But clearly individual's personal opinions favor Pallid. And with good reason.

Owen
 
I agree. Why play the LRGE EGO "it's an intergrade" card when there's nothing to suggest a hybrid visible?

OK, I'll bite, as you want me to

There's not enough to suggest anything. Except that it's given me a valuable first hand insight into how stringers thought processes work....
 
OK, I'll bite, as you want me to

There's not enough to suggest anything. Except that it's given me a valuable first hand insight into how stringers thought processes work....

This has been an interesting and illuminating discussion. Until now. Why lower the tone with such a snide comment that only serves to demean?

You are entitled to be unconfident of the bird's identity and to leave it unidentified. Others - who may or may not have more extensive experience of this species pair - are entitled to make their case without being targeted with pejorative terms such as 'stringer' just because you disagree with them.
 
Just for the sake of it Greg, here´s a Pallid x Montagu´s Finland Aug. 1993, at least that´s what the caption say´s and the photographer is DF
The article here and page 270.
http://www.limicola.de/fileadmin/us...mente/Lontkowski_SkakujWeihenLimicola1995.pdf

JanJ

Nice article. My German's rusty, but from those images it seems the juvs of that mix retain the Monty's feature of the mask not meeting the lower mandible.

At least the first Hen x pallid linked on Forsman's site has an extremely open, pale face pattern. With the second one barely having a mask that meets the gape in a fine point.

So at least on some pallid hybrids the facial pattern seems different from the subject bird.

Owen
 
Just for the sake of it Greg, here´s a Pallid x Montagu´s Finland Aug. 1993, at least that´s what the caption say´s and the photographer is DF
The article here and page 270.
http://www.limicola.de/fileadmin/us...mente/Lontkowski_SkakujWeihenLimicola1995.pdf

JanJ

Thanks Jan. Interesting. They do look intermediate - on balance seemingly closer to Montagu's and might perhaps be passed off as such without very close views or more the point photos.

On the Finnish hybrid that Owen refers to, I also reacted to the very whitish face and wondered where that came from. Actually quite Montagu's-like...;)
 
nice thread, at least what identifying harriers concerns, initially in the Monty camp 2 remarks from my side:

1. again learnt a lot about variation and subtle details, great input as always from Tib but also from Scandinavia, always ready to learn from the experts

2. British birding scene is unique, isn't it?
 
Thanks Jan. Interesting. They do look intermediate - on balance seemingly closer to Montagu's and might perhaps be passed off as such without very close views or more the point photos.

On the Finnish hybrid that Owen refers to, I also reacted to the very whitish face and wondered where that came from. Actually quite Montagu's-like...;)

In France, when I was at the migration watchpoint (Gruissan maybe 3 years ago now), I was advised that Lesser or Greater Spotted Eagle would not be accepted until hybrid had been excluded. On a fly past this isn't easy!

Perhaps this will become the case with these Harriers. With the two Finnish birds I agree the mask doesn't reach the lower mandible but I haven't searched for other pictures - what we don't know is whether these were photographed at a nest site and parents known - will there be a difference between Male Pallid Female Monties or visa versa? Also a hybrid with a hybrid or hybrid pure - the combinations go on. What I'm getting at is when does it stop - 3/4 Pallid 1/4 Monties becomes a Pallid again or does it stay Hybrid? There are no flight shots of these two birds but would be interesting to to see.

The article does say that besides structural differences the best way to separate juv Monties and Pallid is the facce pattern.....
 
nice thread, at least what identifying harriers concerns, initially in the Monty camp 2 remarks from my side:

1. again learnt a lot about variation and subtle details, great input as always from Tib but also from Scandinavia, always ready to learn from the experts

2. British birding scene is unique, isn't it?

Hi Tom,

Does the above mean you have now leaned towards Pallid? What would you make of the subsequent shots posted after your initial comments?

Regards

Owen
 
Hi Tom,

Does the above mean you have now leaned towards Pallid? What would you make of the subsequent shots posted after your initial comments?

Regards

Owen

Hi Owen

Subsequent shots, at least those with head lifted gives a bit better collar but main thing that makes me doubt is the fact that Tib is studying harriers for years and I know he is very knowledgeable on that subject so I put a lot of weight on his opinion, my suggestion simply is: listen to him and not to me ;-)
 
Hi Owen

Subsequent shots, at least those with head lifted gives a bit better collar but main thing that makes me doubt is the fact that Tib is studying harriers for years and I know he is very knowledgeable on that subject so I put a lot of weight on his opinion, my suggestion simply is: listen to him and not to me ;-)

Fair enough, but it all counts.

Owen
 
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