Wind farms (1 Viewer)

oceans · Dec 6, 2004

With the genetic modification thread running I wondered if we could give alternative forms of energy a glance.
I have seen news etc about wind farms being planned in places where eg. Golden Eagles etc are breeding successfully (Scottish Island), there is another planned again in Europe.
But what is the alternative?

Jane Turner · Dec 6, 2004

I have very strong and slightly incompatable views here...

Wind farms are not perfect... some need opposing for the damage they may cause.... HOWEVER.. I am proud.. there I said it, to take my electricity from a wind farm... I can see it out of my bedroom window and I was relieved to see much local support for the building of a second out there.... Birds fly into structures all the time... I quoted the 600 Grasshopper warblers taken out in a single night by the Bardesy Lighthouse (the actually number is in a previous thread) .

Wind farms are a great deal easier to decommision than nuclear power stations should more prefferable option arise, sited well they are not harmful, they are a great deal easier on the eye than Gas rigs.. trust me I can compare and contrast.... and I think most importantly they get the ball moving on renewable energy. if enough people demand it, then there will be pressure for more research and better(?) solutions.

I'm sure there are plenty of alternatives too... a UK terrace house can supply its own needs and give back to the national grid with photo-voltaic tiles, there have to be ways to harvest wave energy..... but... there isn't time to wait for this... you have to start somewhere....

Edit: so I can find it this is a thread on renewables for domestic use
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=59836

Reader · Dec 6, 2004

Jane

You may be right in your wind farm assesment but you are looking at a few near to you. I feel sure you are well travelled and possibly have seen them in the large numbers that I have. If you have they are not a pretty sight and hundreds of them in a fairly tight area I would have thought could do untold damage to our Avian friends.

Perhaps the bird numbers will not be affected globally and if that is the case then perhaps wind farms are the answer. All I know is that an area of Spain I love has been decimated by the building of huge numbers of these machines and areas where I saw many raptors (Tarifa Viewpoint) there now seems to be hardly any.

Jane Turner · Dec 6, 2004

That is sort of what I was saying...my position is that at present Wind farms are a sensible way forwards if they are in the right place... I reckon offshore in Liverpool bay constitues a good place... I am being remakably non-NIMBY here btw... actually come to think of it most places where the sea is shallow enough to put in oil and gas rigs might constitute a good place!

CornishExile · Dec 6, 2004

I think I'd rather make a step in the right direction and invest in a heat pump than knowingly choose to buy wind-energy from an offshore Gannet-mincer...

Jane Turner · Dec 6, 2004

Its hardly conclusive evidence.. but I didn't see any mincing going on this autumn! And I was seawatching through them a lot....Well not out to sea anyway

See the trouble is you may be right... but its hard to invest in a heat pump and you probably won't... instead you will carry on using fossil fuels (not having a pop here btw) at least by making a switch and asking for energy from renewable sources there may be some pressure pu on providers to do some research!

CornishExile · Dec 6, 2004

Jane Turner said:
Its hardly conclusive evidence.. but I didn't see any mincing going on this autumn! And I was seawatching through them a lot....Well not out to sea anyway

See the trouble is you may be right... but its hard to invest in a heat pump and you probably won't... instead you will carry on using fossil fuels (not having a pop here btw) at least by making a switch and asking for energy from renewable sources there may be some pressure pu on providers to do some research!

I know you're not having a pop! (Happy birthday btw :bounce: ) Have recently made a fairly radical change of career / lifestyle, and am happy to say the heat pump goes in next summer when other major works happening to my crofthouse (builder's timetable allowing... this might all fall back into 2006). Would gladly get a small aero-generator as well, but they don't seem to be terribly popular here on Shetland - maybe something to do with wind-damage in our feisty winter storms?!

But yes, can see that consumer demand for renewable energy is a good thing. And wind may be the lesser of evils. I just hate to see all the photos of wind-turbine sliced birds in Spain and America, and have a shrewd suspicion it'll happen here too. If onshore, then probably en-masse on Scottish hills where the breeding waders/divers are likely to be impacted; if offshore, then yet another nail in the coffin of Britain's beleagured seabirds.

Like so many debates, far from clear cut.

Cornish

Jane Turner · Dec 6, 2004

Glad to hear you are having a heat pump... I'm seriously considering photo-voltaic roof tiles! Actually they are cheaper than my roof tlies (graded westmorland slate!!!)

I'd like to see some investment into seeing if there are ways to make them more diver.... G-eagle friendly.. and I'm afraid that involves building them and doing some tests..... The good news is that there isn't too much to disturb out in Liverpool bay!

CornishExile · Dec 6, 2004

Jane Turner said:
Glad to hear you are having a heat pump... I'm seriously considering photo-voltaic roof tiles! Actually they are cheaper than my roof tlies (graded westmorland slate!!!)

I'd like to see some investment into seeing if there are ways to make them more diver.... G-eagle friendly.. and I'm afraid that involves building them and doing some tests..... The good news is that there isn't too much to disturb out in Liverpool bay!

Not sure if that's a glowing testimony to how PV cells have got much cheaper, or a damning indictment of how expensive graded westmorland slate is these days!

Jane Turner · Dec 6, 2004

CornishExile said:
Not sure if that's a glowing testimony to how PV cells have got much cheaper, or a damning indictment of how expensive graded westmorland slate is these days!

The latter I'm afraid.. I am in a conservation area and have to match appearance.... they are £11 each second hand... I have a large hidden South-facing roof!

I wonder if I culd get away with replacing the westmorland with PVs... and selling the former to cover the costs!

Andrew Rowlands · Dec 6, 2004

Jane Turner said:
I'd like to see some investment into seeing if there are ways to make them more diver.... G-eagle friendly.. and I'm afraid that involves building them and doing some tests..... The good news is that there isn't too much to disturb out in Liverpool bay!

A lot of research has been done at Altamont, Ca. where there is a high population of non-breeding G. Eagles. I recall one paper which credited one person for the groundwork (looking for dead/injured birds) and three people for manning a feeding station to lure the birds outside of the windfarm.

Andy.

CornishExile · Dec 6, 2004

Jane Turner said:
The latter I'm afraid.. I am in a conservation area and have to match appearance.... they are £11 each second hand... I have a large hidden South-facing roof!

I wonder if I culd get away with replacing the westmorland with PVs... and selling the former to cover the costs!

Enough to retire on, surely?! I used to live in a cottage with Kent peg tiles, attached to its sides with little fragile wooden pegs (funnily enough!). Every time the wind got a little frisky the peg tiles would dump half a dozen of their number on the lawn / path / car. They were pretty expensive too. These pesky conservation areas... I used to stick the replacements back up with No-more-nails to make really sure the expensive little sods didn't come down again...

Richard D · Dec 6, 2004

I confess that like many I have mixed views on windfarms.

I'm not sure what the alternatives are, in terms of large scale production, but on a small scale what about restoring old watermills - a mill should be able to power a small village with ease, and your preserving our architectural heritage. No it's not going to make a big impact on the supply, but surely in terms of how much it would cost to set it up and maintain it, you're talking very cheap energy.

Up the scale, the carbon-neutral factor of biomass furnaces appeals (although I freely confess to not knowing enough about the technology to look at all the pros and cons). Increasing coppiced woodland might help wildlife as well if carefully cycled.

Richard

CornishExile · Dec 6, 2004

Apologies, have gone off-thread...

Heard a rumour last week that there's a problem with the spate of windmills going up along the west coast of Scotland - apparently there isn't a portal into the National Grid that can cope with the extra electricity generated / due to be generated. Likewise the Shetland Times recently reported the cost of an undersea cable for Shetland to export wind-generated electricity at £245m. That's a lot of green energy that needs to be generated to pay off such a huge investment. Plus how much do each of those big white windmills cost? Am prepared to be corrected on this, but I seem to recall somewhere in the region of £1m a go. Be it Shetland or elsewhere, these babies and their ancillaries ain't cheap. I wonder how much carbon dioxide is generated in their production, from ore etc to finished wired-in windmill? Just a thought.

I wonder what people think about (cue sound effect of lid being prised off can of worms) the theory aired recently in the media that the only sensible option for future energy requirements is next-generation nuclear?

(Stands back and waits for all hell to break loose...)

Nina P · Dec 6, 2004

I have been pondering this phenomena and would have thought that these huge turbines surely aren't really necessary, as I can hardly believe they really put much into the national grid, I would have thought that if each house had solar panels and a small artesian well type of windmill then there would be little to no damage, as the fan spins more speedily, more likely with guards on to produce a higher quantity, safely? Or am I totally misled?

Edward woodwood · Dec 6, 2004

love them

build em and lots of them quickly. Yes, birds get killed.

...but it's a step in the right direction to start the move away from oil and the potential and actual conflicts that will doubtless happen otherwise. And the problems coming will make the deaths of a few birds seem very very insignificant.

atb
Tim

I wish people got so wound up about the burning of fossil fuels

TexasFlyway · Dec 6, 2004

These windfarms do have their issues. Personally, coming from an energy background they are marginal producers at best. The cost issue has been presented and indeed it is considerably higher per installed Mw. than other forms of energy.

But my real question is this:

The location of these farms to be ideally suited to maximize production must be located in areas that experience a high percentage of wind days. The winds on average must not be too high, so to minimize governor sizing, and minimize tower designs.

Do these areas sound like the exact ones birds might have figured out as ideal routes to travel at minimum energy output to get from point "A" to "B?"

Are there any ornithologists out there who know ? I am sure "Environmental Impact Statements" are filed before the permit to build is granted. It is just a supposition on my part. Just seems good windmill areas make good flyways also, and hence are even more detrimental to bird populations than just random encounters.

David Bryant · Dec 6, 2004

The REAL alternative? Nuclear fusion! No radiation, easy decommisioning, no harmful products or greenhouse gases! Thing is: the technology was getting there when the western govts decided to stop the funding! Why? Oil = political control! And a bl**dy good excuse to invade small sovereign nations who have some! And who owns a lot of the patents for fusion / hydrogen fueled ic engines etc etc? The car companies and the petrol companies!
I HATE wind turbines! They are ugly, expensive. have a very short active life (according to the geezers at the Eco-Centre in Norfolk!) and provide electricity in a haphazard and unpredictable way (as the Cornish Exile correctly highlighted!) Given the materials the Yarmouth windfarm is made from and its VERY short life expectancy, the turbines could probably be shown to be a major nett producer of greenhouse gases! And solar power will only become truly viable in the UK once global warming really kicks in!

jurek · Dec 6, 2004

In October I listened to a scientist about a wind farm on German North Sea. He was clearly against it, but I think without strong ground.

He observed migrating sea birds flew to the side of the farm - which meant the detour of few km. I suppose, not much for ducks migrating thousands of kilometers, often against the wind.

Divers and Common Scoters which previously were in the area abandoned wind farms, but gulls and terns increased.

And then he said something that my mouth dropped. "I cannot say if birds are killed". Moment - few minutes ago he said about seeing hundreds of migrating birds flying around the wind farm. So how a bird can both fly to the side AND get killed?

Overall, I got an impression that comparing to coal factory or oil drill, wind farms are better.

David · Dec 6, 2004

My dear Tim et al.

Tim Allwood said:
love them

build em and lots of them quickly. Yes, birds get killed.

...but it's a step in the right direction to start the move away from oil and the potential and actual conflicts that will doubtless happen otherwise. And the problems coming will make the deaths of a few birds seem very very insignificant.

I can quite understand your enthusiasm and optimism; but life's not that simple. For example - IMHO:

1. First and foremost we must use less energy. WHATEVER we do, and wind energy is not a passive form of energy, we will affect our environment - climate change, 'industrialisation of natural habitats (for humans as well) etc., If those who make money out of us** really wanted to, we could have 1 liter (pre 100 km) and zero energy hoiuses tomorrow (we could have had them 10 years ago!).

2. Politicians must serve the majority of voters and not just those with the loudest and lmost lucrative voices. If they hadn't kow-towed and lickspittled to industry over the years ( and NO major party, in UK or elsewhere is exempt) we could have had heavy investment in wind, wave, tidal, geo-thermal, solar and other renewable energies. It's still not too late; but the longer we leaver it the more we lose in terms of irreversible habitat and species population loss in the long term.

3. "Deaths of a few birds. Can the Uk (or the world) afford to have only 50 Golden eagles literally 'chopped' in the "lifespan of the facility". Do a snapshot of that - and we're only talking about one small Scottish offshore island.

The end NEVER justifies the means. Birds do not have to die or populations and habitats shrink and disappear just to fuel our enormous appetite for energy. We can make sacrifices (switch off all those devices on standy.by at home; buy more efficient machines) and industry must be made to do better.

There are people who know much more about the whole problem who will comment here in greater quality (and quantity). I just want to keep the whole discussion on the rails. And if WE go off the rails ..... I despari (almost).

David

Wind farms (1 Viewer)

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