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cheap scopes (1 Viewer)

crumbucket

Active member
Newbie here! So duck, incoming stupid questions! Hope I'm posting in the right place...

I've been looking to purchase a cheap scope for the past several weeks. I've read everything I can find until my eyeballs bleed and still cannot make a good decision. It seems that good metrics for decision making cannot be found in the spotting scope world, and most posts seem to be along the lines of "go to a shop and compare them all side by side." Seems that the best review I can find is that Cornell article from last year that everyone links to.

Having said that, I am looking at a Stokes Sandpiper, the Special Purchase 20-60x80 (at Eagle and cameralandny), and whatever I can find used (not much so far). The Sandpiper seems to be about $330 and the Special at $200.

Keeping in mind that I'm poor, does anyone have advice for me? Has anyone actually compared the 2 above? I've read that a person on here (FrankD?) thinks highly of the Special, and that it is better than scopes twice its price, but I've also read a similar opinion of the Sandpiper from Cornell. Another person on birdforum.net seemed to poo-poo the Cornell article.

I should say that while I haven't often looked through a good scope, I do have 4 (well, now 3) pair of binoculars: Canon IS 10x30, Jason 7x35 1116F, Nikon 8x21 Sprint II, and Barska 20-140x80. I can certainly tell that my Jason's are several steps below my Nikon's (although clear, have a lot of tiny bubbles which become obvious at the edges. But all the extra glass almost makes them as good as the Nikon's although the Nikon's are much smaller and lighter). I think my Canon's are spectacular. And the Barska's are craptacular to a degree I cannot believe, at any zoom level. They are so horrible that I cannot believe that Barska feels that they can actually sell them without creating an automatic return, which is what I did. So maybe this tells you of my non-expert, yet non-crap discrimination level.

I would appreciate ANY help anyone would want to give.
 
The Sandpiper is a fine entry level scope. It is now end-of-lifed (you can't find it on Vortex's now Hunter-orientated web site) but the angled version doesn't seemed to have dropped to bargain prices.

Cameraland has the straight version for $199. EO has the angled for $320 (or something). It all depends straight or angled preference and how much you value the angled version.

The 80mm Special is a Vortex Nomad and is rather larger and heavier but I suspect (though not verified) that this is similar in performance to the smaller Sandpiper.

Don't forget a decent tripod. It makes all the difference.
 
Keeping in mind that I'm poor, does anyone have advice for me? Has anyone actually compared the 2 above? I've read that a person on here (FrankD?) thinks highly of the Special, and that it is better than scopes twice its price,

I think that is a fair summary of my earlier comments. I cannot really find anything to complain about with the unbadged Vortex Nomad 80. The image could be brighter (if you read the other thread you will see that the aperture is stopped down internally) but with the excellent edge performance the scope displays I am not complaining. I would most certainly recommend this scope as a low cost alternative. The images are quite good and certainly sure to please anyone provided they are not looking for a high end scope. Cameralandny still has some of the angled models in stock though EO was out the last time I checked.
 
Thank you Kevin and FrankD for your help. It is much appreciated.

I'd like to clarify a bit. I do think it necessary to have an angled scope. I'm 6' and my wife is about 5'4''. Plus I'd like to try to use my cheap tripod before resorting to buying a better one, and that might mean keeping it short.

Given your comments, it seems that I can spend $130 more for the Sandpiper and gain a smaller scope, but other than that they are probably similar in build quality, image quality, and brightness. They seem to weigh about the same (38 vs 44 oz).

FrankD, gonna re-look over your comments about the aperture thing.

Again, thanks for you guys' help!
 
Glad I could be of some assistance.

Truth be told I don't see how you could go wrong with the Unbadged model. Take a look at the picture in the earlier thread. It really is not much larger than the Pentax 65 so size really isn't an issue. With EO you have a 30 day return policy. With Cameralandny you have 7 days. Either is plenty of time to give the scope a thorough evaluation in my opinion.

Let us know what you decide on and how much you like it once you receive it.
 
Seems reasonable.

Starting with a cheap tripod you own is fine. But really don't underestimate the value of a good tripod. I did until I used a "real" one. It's like using good optics for the first time. Wow!

And the nice thing about a good tripod/head is it won't go out of style or break (unless you make an effort).

Sometimes even replacing the head of a cheap tripod with a decent (but not expensive) head can make a huge difference in using the scope for an extended time.

It all depends how far you have to walk with the scope ... less than a 100m from the car then it's not an issue. Hiking with it then you might make a different choice.

Everything is a compromise ;)
 
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Frank, am traveling now but will decide in the next week or so. Will keep you updated.

Kevin, care to suggest a tripod? Again, like scopes, the question seems to be "how much do you wanna spend?" I read an article this week where the author showed how I could save myself money by buying a $1000 tripod setup now rather than $1700 by doing it piecemeal. Well, I'm not spending that kind of money on a tripod! So I guess I'm asking, what's "good enough" for you? What do you think of something like this:

http://www.eagleoptics.com/tripod-kits/vortex/vortex-ridgeview-tripod-kit

Or do you mean something nicer?
 
Minimizing cost.

At the bottom end a light enough to carry but not totally rigid but better than a lot of others. The just EOLed Manfrotto 728B or replacement Manfrotto 7301YB (god, what a memorable name). I think the latter is really a 728B with Multiple Leg Angles.

http://www.eagleoptics.com/tripod-kits/bogen-manfrotto/bogen-7301yb-tripod-with-3-way-head

You might be able to find the 728B for just over $110 if you are lucky. The new one is $130. Light just about good enough and PL-200 QR plate. And good enough to hike with when you do get a bigger tripod.

I use one with a Sandpiper and carry it with a Wandering Tattler: it works for me. Not sure about an 80mm scope thought it is in the load range.

Or the Vortex STX 70 tripod (no head) for $99. It's a copy of the 055 Manfrotto tripod (sorta). Big, black and solid. And cheaper than a Manfrotto 055.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/vortex-summit-stx-tripod.html

Add a Manfrotto fluid head like a 128LP without QR or one of the other QR heads depending on solidity, feel, load and weight.

http://www.eagleoptics.com/tripod-h...bogen-manfrotto-128lp-micro-fluid-tripod-head

http://www.eagleoptics.com/tripod-h...bogen-manfrotto-128rc-micro-fluid-tripod-head

The combo is a lot heavier than the 728B (just under twice the weight) but doesn't move nearly as much and the fluid head panning is a delight. And a bit under twice the cost. About the same as your scope. ;)

If you buy a cheaper tripod it will just be a pain and you'll need to buy a real one in the end!

So try it with your existing tripod then think about an upgrade.
 
I have been using the previously standard combo of the BM-3001BN legs with the 3130 head. Neither weight nor stability seem to be an issue for the variety of applications I have put it into. Total cost was around $220 if memory serves me. It has worked well for just regular scope use and for digiscoping at times.
 
I have been using the previously standard combo of the BM-3001BN legs with the 3130 head. Neither weight nor stability seem to be an issue for the variety of applications I have put it into. Total cost was around $220 if memory serves me. It has worked well for just regular scope use and for digiscoping at times.

Yeap, that's basically the same thing (055 + 128RC) in, as we say in the UK, "old money".

My distinction is hiking. I'm not sure I'd want to hike with 055 + 128RC but I think I could do it with a 728B.
 
My distinction is hiking. I'm not sure I'd want to hike with 055 + 128RC but I think I could do it with a 728B.

Good point. I have "hiked" with that setup slung over my shoulder with the Pentax shoulder strap but only 20 minutes or so up and 20 minutes back to the local hawkwatch. I would probably want something lighter for true portability. Speaking of which I now need a new one for the Promaster 65 ED so my interest in your suggestions has heightened. I will have to go back through and look at what you listed in more detail.
 
Thanks folks for all the help. Especially Kevin for the tripod talk.

Think I'll skip the Zedona since no one seems to have tried it.

Back from traveling, gonna make a purchase this week (prob Thursday). Gonna go by the local Sportsman's Warehouse just to see what they've got (who knows?), and then if they don't have anything promising, probably will go with the Sandpiper. Here's why.

That Cornell article involved 30 birders of varying degrees. For whatever reasons they preferred the Sandpiper over the theoretically nicer Skyline 80's, in every category. It seems to me that since this Special Purchase is a Nomad, and since Nomads are supposedly a step down from the Skylines, it seems to have to be a real step down, from scopes that most folks didn't like as much as the Sandpiper.

Further, they seem to have made another production run of these Special Purchases. The idea that they were simply a result of "forgetting to attach a label", or maybe just deciding that they didn't really fit into Vortex's lineup, while maybe initially true, cannot be the same reason they made another production run. They wouldn't do that if they weren't making money on a really cheap scope. What I'm saying is that Frank's scope may be the real thing, but the one that I buy from this second run may not be as good as his.

I'm sure that my reasoning is flawed and over-simplifies things... Any more thoughts? Frank, I am especially grateful for your input. Without you I would not even have considered the Special Purchase.
 
OK last thoughts before purchase...

Looked at what the local Sportman's Warehouse had and realized that they didn't have much. So...

Got to thinking about eye relief. I know from other things I have read that you can't trust the number that is often posted for some scopes. I wear thick glasses. Kevin and Frank, I would appreciate a quick comment about the eye relief of both the Special and the Sandpiper. My impression is that both scopes have "good enuf" eye relief. Do you agree?
 
Got to thinking about eye relief. I know from other things I have read that you can't trust the number that is often posted for some scopes. I wear thick glasses. Kevin and Frank, I would appreciate a quick comment about the eye relief of both the Special and the Sandpiper. My impression is that both scopes have "good enuf" eye relief. Do you agree?

Depends on the user.

The Special has rather less ER than the Sandpiper over the whole range but it's still usable with close-fit glasses for me.

The other thing to note is when the spec the ER range it's often at both ends of the zoom setting but the minimum ER is lower than those two (and usually at the most used magnification around 30x). At least for the way most companies seem to spec zoom EPs. tvwg.nl has a couple of graphs that show this effect rather nicely.

Just comparing the size of the EPs confirms this ... the Sandpiper is a bit of a grenade for a small scope but the Special is rather ordinary. I suspect that's why it did well in the Cornell review.

Did Vortex ever make a 80mm Sandpiper scope and reuse that EP with a bigger objective. I don't think they did.
 
Thank you for the further info, Kevin. There is a lot of useful info at that tvwg.nl site, although it takes me a while to keep feeding pages into the Google translator. I especially did not realize that there was so much variation between serial numbers of the same model. I also didn't realize that eye relief is most compromised at the most useful magnification of around 30x in zoom EPs.

From what I've found, I do not believe that there was ever any other model of the Sandpiper other than the Stokes 65mm straight and angled models. I'm just guessing that the Stokes demanded a big eyepiece, and Vortex complied.

Since my last post, I've become rather depressed about the whole situation. I don't want another experience even remotely like the one I had with those horrifically awful Barska 20-140x80 binocs. I'm increasingly feeling like I either have to spend a lot of money on a really nice scope, or at least get some real hands-on time with a cheaper or used scope before I buy it. I suppose I could order a Sandpiper and just send it back if I don't like it, but I hate doing that. I feel like what I really want might be a nicer scope with a 30x fixed piece on it. Maybe it is best if I meet up with some of the local birders and get more experience with various scopes.
 
Crumbucket: Do not purchase at this time! Wait! You must try out any scope prior to purchase. Most particularly, as you mention your "thick eyeglasses". I also wear eyeglasses, but not "thick" eyeglasses. The Sandpiper's stated (false) constant 18mm eye relief would not be adequate for use with my eyeglasses; thus, probably will not be adequate for your "thick" eyeglasses. I find that poor eye relief (</= 18mm) spotting scopes/binoculars are extremely uncomfortable for me to use, plus they provide a horrible view.

The Cornell Lab Scope Quest 2008 review clearly states, "If you wear eyeglasses, it is especially important that you test a scope in person before buying it."

If you wear "thick" glasses, then the Sandpiper is probably not for you. Find one (I know that's easyer said then done) and try it out. If you do not mind wasting your time as well as $15 or $20, then go ahead and order the Sandpiper from EO, check it out and then, if the eyerelief is no good or if the quality sucks (with current very poor quality control on cheap spotting scope's that's about a 50:50 probability) - SEND IT BACK!.

What you may have to do in regard to getting good eye relief (20mm) is get a Pentax PF65ED All which accepts 1.25" telescopic eyepieces; purchase Baader Hyperion or Orion Stratus or Televue Radian fixed focal length eyepieces (13mm = 30x) and possibly get a WO Zoom (If you can find one) or a Celestron Explorer ll Zoom. However all of this is more expensive, by far, than buying a Sandpiper for $330. Wearing eyeglasses while using a spotting scope is a wearisome and expensive proposition.

Good luck, don't buy blind or you'll be mightily dissappointed.
 
I suppose I could order a Sandpiper and just send it back if I don't like it, but I hate doing that. I feel like what I really want might be a nicer scope with a 30x fixed piece on it. Maybe it is best if I meet up with some of the local birders and get more experience with various scopes.

The more I use the Sandpiper the more I believe Cornell in saying it was the standout at the bottom end of the range. So the risk of trying it is not that much. The cost of shipping back to EO if it doesn't work out?

The PF65 is certainly the next step up (and gives a fair amount of EP flexibility too one of it's most endearing features).

Best of all are the local birders and ornithological societies: though beware of biases and not seeing the middle and low end scopes in that mix. But it's certainly a great way to get hands on with some scopes and to put them into some sort of order.

Beware of looking into the top quality scopes: its has a way of costing you a lot of money. I got a look through another birder's Leica scope recently (not sure of the model but I suspect it was a HD as it had a excellent view with very well suppressed CA).
 
What you may have to do in regard to getting good eye relief (20mm) is get a Pentax PF65ED All which accepts 1.25" telescopic eyepieces; purchase Baader Hyperion or Orion Stratus or Televue Radian fixed focal length eyepieces (13mm = 30x) and possibly get a WO Zoom (If you can find one) or a Celestron Explorer ll Zoom. However all of this is more expensive, by far, than buying a Sandpiper for $330. Wearing eyeglasses while using a spotting scope is a wearisome and expensive proposition.

Sorry for not replying sooner. This was the direction my thinking was going in after reading your latest comments. You can still get the original Pentax 65 ED scope body for $420 I believe at Adorama or was it B&H Photo. I have had dealings with both and have not had a problem returning items. You can then decide what quality and magnification of eyepiece you want and custom fit it to the scope.

1.25 inch Astro eyepieces range dramatically in price from the inexpensive $20 4 element Plossls all the way up to the Televue models running $720. If you are starting out and want to keep the price as low as possible with very respectable performance in a fixed eyepiece then I would suggest the Knight Owl EWA models. Their 15 mm would give you about 26x in the P65 with a 65 degree field of view and decent eye relief.

If the optical quality isn't up to your standard then you could look at some of the $60-$100 eyepieces out there like the WO SWAN or the Meade 5000 series Plossl. Both are noticeably better than the EWA in several key areas.

Just something to think about and a scope purchase you certainly won't regret from a performance vs. price perspective.
 
Bearclaw, Kevin, Frank, thank you for the continued input.

I'm one of these people that gets paralysis through analysis. The more info I get, the more I feel like I can't be happy without spending a lot of money on some high end fluorite glass scope. I simply won't fall for the trap of spending more money than I have, so I get frustrated and disgusted and come to the conclusion that I simply cannot have what other folks can have; that if I can only afford crap, then I don't want it at all. :)

Having said that, well, I'm still trying to get a middling used scope. We'll just have to see what turns up. That p65 everyone keeps mentioning sure seems to fit the bill. How about a Kowa TS-611? How about an Alpen 788 (is that EP replaceable)? I've found these on ebay.
 
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