OK_Scissortail
Oklahoma State Bird
Hollis...the IS was on for all shots.
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Flight photos technique VS still photos (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter OK_Scissortail
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tdodd
Just call me Tim
Only too pleased to help. You can get reasonable results, even with a 100% crop, but for such crops to be successful you really need to shoot to raw, with perfect exposure or better yet, exposing to the right, low ISO and perfect focus. Ideally the lens will be very sharp at the chosen aperture and your shutter speed will comfortably eliminate camera shake and subject motion. Unless all those things come together it will be hard to get great results from a tight crop. Here are a couple of my efforts - full image resized and then 100% crops.I have also come up with through reading the posts that I may need to be closer to subject for less cropping of the photo leaving me with better quality?
The type of photo I am after is like some in the gallery, the close up photo of small bird perched on branch, detailed and clear. Right now I am not getting a clear photo or the rich detail. I realize lenses are all different in quality but surely with my 300mm I can eventually get a nice portrait style shot of a bird.
I really like the 450D and sense that it can do far better then I am doing right now on still shots. With everyone being so helpful I am confident the answer will be found and I can begin taking some decent still shots of birds.
The first example is with my 50D, 100-400 @ 400mm plus a 1.4X teleconverter with taped pins, so that's equivalent to 560mm. Aperture was recorded as f/7.1, which converts to f/10 with the teleconverter taken into account, and I was at 400 ISO. Shutter speed was 1/400 and I used a tripod. Focus was by Live View at 10X magnification.
The second is with my 1D3 and 100-400 @ 400mm. This was without a teleconverter and was at f/5.6, 400 ISO, 1/500 and on a tripod. I used normal AF for this shot.
Both have had some quick tweaking of the raw files in Lightroom to try to improve apparent IQ.
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Your gull shot is great...very clear. I can see what you mean about the woodpecker as they are not clear and should be considering the distance etc...
How many shots do you take when you shoot? Just a few or do you take perhaps 20+ or the woodpecker? Sometimes I do the same and just due to movement of the bird, myself etc ....one out of 20 will come in clear! I hope....
I use a mono-pod....I have found since using it that my shots have improved a lot. Not hard to take when just roaming around the place and not hiking in mountains or really bad areas so can't say how I will like it at that point. But just doing normal hiking, a mono-pod is what I am sold on. I just condense it once the shots are taken and I am moving on and rest it on my shoulder as I walk. Not hard....try one and see what happens for you are close.... jim
How many shots do you take when you shoot? Just a few or do you take perhaps 20+ or the woodpecker? Sometimes I do the same and just due to movement of the bird, myself etc ....one out of 20 will come in clear! I hope....
I use a mono-pod....I have found since using it that my shots have improved a lot. Not hard to take when just roaming around the place and not hiking in mountains or really bad areas so can't say how I will like it at that point. But just doing normal hiking, a mono-pod is what I am sold on. I just condense it once the shots are taken and I am moving on and rest it on my shoulder as I walk. Not hard....try one and see what happens for you are close.... jim
Roy C
Occasional bird snapper
1 in 20 is not a very good hit rate Jim, have you ever thought about using AI servo? I use it all the time, even for perched birds.
AI servo mode
I do use AI servo and find it helpful. Up till now I have been playing with getting to know my lens and have found that the more I practice and shoot, the more I have to select from in terms of a good shot.
My focus is getting better now as I am learning what best setting my aperture should be. For a long time I was concentrating on f5.6 and was disappointed with my overall focus, but recently moved to 8.0 or 7.1 and found all being just about perfect. I am still finding that the angle of the bird in relation to the sun also makes a huge difference on colors such as black, white, etc..even though the sun is always in back of me one way or another if out. Still learning...
I do use AI servo and find it helpful. Up till now I have been playing with getting to know my lens and have found that the more I practice and shoot, the more I have to select from in terms of a good shot.
My focus is getting better now as I am learning what best setting my aperture should be. For a long time I was concentrating on f5.6 and was disappointed with my overall focus, but recently moved to 8.0 or 7.1 and found all being just about perfect. I am still finding that the angle of the bird in relation to the sun also makes a huge difference on colors such as black, white, etc..even though the sun is always in back of me one way or another if out. Still learning...
Jaff
Registered Member
My observation is this. The woodpeckers are much smaller than gulls. Where the gull may be a 50% crop for example the Woodpeckers would require more cropping still (even if the same distance away), which is sure to degrade the image quality, particularly with the 70-300mm IS. I wouldn't recommend cropping heavily with this lens, as good as it is for a non L grade lens.
Cheers.
Adam
Cheers.
Adam
OK_Scissortail
Oklahoma State Bird
Test Shot
To answer Jim first, I will usually take about 3-5 shots of a subject still and well for flight sometimes it is just a one shot opportunity for the type of close up photo I like. On still shots most my subjects don't hang around that long to get very many shots. Busy birds they are..lol. I'm going to try out a mono-pod and see how it goes.
Ok for the testing I was standing 20 feet from pole when taking both photos. I shot the first photo with stabilizer on and in mode 1, this is all with lens. On camera I shot at 400 ISO, 7.1, 300mm, shutter speed 1/2000. Chose one shot instead of AI Servo..oops I think. Photos were sized for upload but that is all, no cropping or sharpening.
Second photo I had stabilizer on but used mode 2 on lens. Same camera information for both photos. Only thing that changed between the two photos was I shot on mode 1 for photo 1 and mode 2 for photo 2.
I hope this helps. I do see a slight difference in photo quality or clarity between the two photos. Is it the camera, lens or me not being steady enough? I know before the last shot I really had to work at being steady. These were shot without a tripod.
To answer Jim first, I will usually take about 3-5 shots of a subject still and well for flight sometimes it is just a one shot opportunity for the type of close up photo I like. On still shots most my subjects don't hang around that long to get very many shots. Busy birds they are..lol. I'm going to try out a mono-pod and see how it goes.
Ok for the testing I was standing 20 feet from pole when taking both photos. I shot the first photo with stabilizer on and in mode 1, this is all with lens. On camera I shot at 400 ISO, 7.1, 300mm, shutter speed 1/2000. Chose one shot instead of AI Servo..oops I think. Photos were sized for upload but that is all, no cropping or sharpening.
Second photo I had stabilizer on but used mode 2 on lens. Same camera information for both photos. Only thing that changed between the two photos was I shot on mode 1 for photo 1 and mode 2 for photo 2.
I hope this helps. I do see a slight difference in photo quality or clarity between the two photos. Is it the camera, lens or me not being steady enough? I know before the last shot I really had to work at being steady. These were shot without a tripod.
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OK_Scissortail
Oklahoma State Bird
I'll add this photo of a still bird shot a few weeks after I got the camera. This is the only still bird shot that is ok compared with all the photos I have tried to take since then. Very depressing to have one out of thousands of tries on different small birds.
This photo was shot on manual(have no idea what I was doing with it set there unless it got moved by accident.) 5.6, shutter speed 1/2000, 800 ISO, and at 300mm.
This photo was shot on manual(have no idea what I was doing with it set there unless it got moved by accident.) 5.6, shutter speed 1/2000, 800 ISO, and at 300mm.
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tdodd
Just call me Tim
Scissortail, the test shots of the wooden post look soft to me, especially if those are full frames simply resized. I still don't know that we've eliminated miscalibrated AF but another thought occurs to me - what exactly is your image processing workflow? Do you shoot raw or JPEG? If raw, how do you convert to JPEG? What software do you use? What sharpening techniques? Whether shooting raw or JPEG, do you sharpen after resizing?
If you don't understand the importance of, and need to sharpen (especially after resizing) may I direct you to a couple of articles by Canon....
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/technical/sharpening_your_act.do
http://www.usa.canon.com/content/sharpening/sharpening.html
By the way, if you post a cropped image, such as the woodpecker, it would be helpful if you would post the whole image as well, resized to suitable dimensions - e.g. 800x533 - so that we can appreciate the degree of cropping. Alternatively, iIf you post a 100% crop and let us know it is a 100% crop then that would be equally valid. Otherwise we have no way to know just how much cropping there is/was.
EDIT : I've taken the liberty of downloading the first example of your wooden post shot and applied some sharpening in Lightroom. Results would be better if I started with the original file but hopefully you will agree that there is room to improve the perceived sharpness with a bit of tweaking. I've attached your original file and my sharpened version so that the comparison is easy to make.
If you don't understand the importance of, and need to sharpen (especially after resizing) may I direct you to a couple of articles by Canon....
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/technical/sharpening_your_act.do
http://www.usa.canon.com/content/sharpening/sharpening.html
By the way, if you post a cropped image, such as the woodpecker, it would be helpful if you would post the whole image as well, resized to suitable dimensions - e.g. 800x533 - so that we can appreciate the degree of cropping. Alternatively, iIf you post a 100% crop and let us know it is a 100% crop then that would be equally valid. Otherwise we have no way to know just how much cropping there is/was.
EDIT : I've taken the liberty of downloading the first example of your wooden post shot and applied some sharpening in Lightroom. Results would be better if I started with the original file but hopefully you will agree that there is room to improve the perceived sharpness with a bit of tweaking. I've attached your original file and my sharpened version so that the comparison is easy to make.
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OK_Scissortail
Oklahoma State Bird
Hi Tim, the photos download from camera in jpg. I then crop if needed and usually sharpen some because resizing will most of the lose some quality. I will need to look it up to see how to set my camera on raw, I know it can, just never understood enough about it to set it there.
Posted below is the woodpecker photos sized to upload and then the same photo that was cropped and sharpened. I did this same thing for the 3rd and 4th photo of the different pose. I use zoom browser to crop and then use my Photo Impact to sharpen, saturation and contrast, etc. Sometimes I crop in this program too.
Posted below is the woodpecker photos sized to upload and then the same photo that was cropped and sharpened. I did this same thing for the 3rd and 4th photo of the different pose. I use zoom browser to crop and then use my Photo Impact to sharpen, saturation and contrast, etc. Sometimes I crop in this program too.
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OK_Scissortail
Oklahoma State Bird
As I see now that is quite a bit of crop on the woodpeckers. I want to note that even with closer original photos that I may not crop near as much I still end up with a so so photo. Just some more info.
tdodd
Just call me Tim
Now that I can see the extent of your cropping I think perhaps that is where your expectations are too high. In general, a zoom will not be as sharp as a prime and a non-L will not be as sharp as an L. Considering the amount of cropping that second woodpecker image actually looks pretty good. The eye area in particular looks sharp to me. Perhaps the feather detail is such that it just looks soft because there are no hard edged markings.
As I said earlier, when you crop as much as this your focus has to be impeccable, because you are effectively having to magnify that tiny crop of the image far more than with a larger image to begin with. There is another issue with AF to consider. The focusing sensors are larger than the focus marks within the viewfinder. Typically the sensors are at least twice as high and wide as the marks, if not three times larger. That means that, in this example, the sensor might pick up on high contrast in the bark of the tree rather than choose the bird as the focus target. It is for this reason that it can be so hard to AF on a bird hidden between branches of a tree. The AF sensor sees the branch and chooses to focus on that rather than the bird behind it.
I would still recommend you carry out some sort of focus test, and check that your kit is working to the optimum, but your cheapest solution to better results is to practice your fieldcraft and get closer to your subjects. A more expensive solution would be a 500/4 and a 1.4X teleconverter together with a solid tripod and gimbal head
Here's an extreme woodpecker crop (100% crop) from my 50D and 100-400 @ 400mm, handheld at 1/640, f/7.1, 400 ISO. Not too good, but not unexpected. I only took the photo for identification purposes as I could not tell what it was with eyesight alone. I had to focus manually through the viewfinder because there was no way the AF could work effectively with all those branches in the way. If I had had a tripod with me I could have set the camera down and used Live View for pin point focus accuracy, but I was out walking the dog rather than on a photography trip, so no tripod.
As I said earlier, when you crop as much as this your focus has to be impeccable, because you are effectively having to magnify that tiny crop of the image far more than with a larger image to begin with. There is another issue with AF to consider. The focusing sensors are larger than the focus marks within the viewfinder. Typically the sensors are at least twice as high and wide as the marks, if not three times larger. That means that, in this example, the sensor might pick up on high contrast in the bark of the tree rather than choose the bird as the focus target. It is for this reason that it can be so hard to AF on a bird hidden between branches of a tree. The AF sensor sees the branch and chooses to focus on that rather than the bird behind it.
I would still recommend you carry out some sort of focus test, and check that your kit is working to the optimum, but your cheapest solution to better results is to practice your fieldcraft and get closer to your subjects. A more expensive solution would be a 500/4 and a 1.4X teleconverter together with a solid tripod and gimbal head
Here's an extreme woodpecker crop (100% crop) from my 50D and 100-400 @ 400mm, handheld at 1/640, f/7.1, 400 ISO. Not too good, but not unexpected. I only took the photo for identification purposes as I could not tell what it was with eyesight alone. I had to focus manually through the viewfinder because there was no way the AF could work effectively with all those branches in the way. If I had had a tripod with me I could have set the camera down and used Live View for pin point focus accuracy, but I was out walking the dog rather than on a photography trip, so no tripod.
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Roy C
Occasional bird snapper
Not sure this is a focus problem as the f stop has got no direct bearing on focus. With your lens you will get sharper shots by opening the lens up a bit but that is down to DOF and the optics in the lens rather than focusing.
Stephen Fletcher
Yes, i did take the photo of the Eagle
True, but i know what he means, people often get perceived sharper shots at f8 than at f4 due to increase in DoF.
Many extensive tests of MTF charactericstics of this lens has proved it is softer at 400mm, but gets better when stopped down, not opened. The optimum sharpness is at 300mm f8.
JohnZ
Well-known member
I have spoken to Jim, via pm, about his choice of lens and, without wishing to offend, I think we both agreed that he may have done a bit better with a different lens.
However if you look at his Flickr gallery I think you will see a marked improvement in his pic taking. The top three shots are considerably better than anything he has posted here so far.
However if you look at his Flickr gallery I think you will see a marked improvement in his pic taking. The top three shots are considerably better than anything he has posted here so far.
Roy C
Occasional bird snapper
I agree Stephen, I was just trying to point out that it was not a focusing problem.
tdodd
Just call me Tim
I've just been outside to calibrate the microfocus adjustment on my 1D3, using the Tim Jackson focus test chart I linked to earlier - http://www.focustestchart.com/focus12.pdf. Here is the result (screen print) of an AF test with no adjustments.
http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/POTN?authkey=YwMQelbhTZY#5304493729170365090
As you will see I have a focus target that is parallel with the sensor plane and large enough that there can be no doubt that the AF sensor in use has picked the correct target. The focus point is not highlighted because I use back button focus only, so AF was not active when I released the shutter. If you look at the DOF as it alters from front to back you will see that mostly everything in front of the plane of focus is pretty sharp, but it goes downhill fast to the rear of the focus target. This body/lens is front focusing by maybe 2-3". On a small bird, if you're cropping tight, that focus error is easily enough to make the shot unuseable. If I was aiming at a bird facing towards me and focused on the eye I'd have a sharp eye and bill and the whole body of the bird would be soft.
Now, because I have microfocus adjustment on the 1D3 I can tweak the focus setting to eliminate that small error. On earlier/lesser cameras that option is not available. I haven't adjusted the lens/body yet but once I have I should get images that are as sharp as the lens can muster for any given aperture.
<break for lunch>
Here is the equivalent image with a microfocus adjustment setting of +6. I did take down and re-setup the gear so maybe the framing is a tad different but nothing that will alter the results. The lighting has also changed but it does not matter.
http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/POTN?authkey=YwMQelbhTZY#5304501576961609778
Note how there is a pretty even balance of acceptable sharpness both in front of and behind the focus target. I did increment the adjustment, one step at a time, and there is a clear trend from one shot to the next of improving focus accuracy. Note that the +/-50mm marks are both notably soft and about equally so. Ditto the +/-40mm marks, although they are acceptably sharp, especially if not cropping. I am happy that +6 is a good adjustment for this lens. I think + 7 is equally satisfactory.
The point is, if a 1 series body and L lens can focus this inaccurately (before adjustment), who is to say that a lesser body and lens may not also suffer from miscalibration woes?
Finally, here's the same lens on my 50D. With this combination I only need the microfocus adjustment set to +1.
http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/POTN?authkey=YwMQelbhTZY#5304505235265966274
http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/POTN?authkey=YwMQelbhTZY#5304493729170365090
As you will see I have a focus target that is parallel with the sensor plane and large enough that there can be no doubt that the AF sensor in use has picked the correct target. The focus point is not highlighted because I use back button focus only, so AF was not active when I released the shutter. If you look at the DOF as it alters from front to back you will see that mostly everything in front of the plane of focus is pretty sharp, but it goes downhill fast to the rear of the focus target. This body/lens is front focusing by maybe 2-3". On a small bird, if you're cropping tight, that focus error is easily enough to make the shot unuseable. If I was aiming at a bird facing towards me and focused on the eye I'd have a sharp eye and bill and the whole body of the bird would be soft.
Now, because I have microfocus adjustment on the 1D3 I can tweak the focus setting to eliminate that small error. On earlier/lesser cameras that option is not available. I haven't adjusted the lens/body yet but once I have I should get images that are as sharp as the lens can muster for any given aperture.
<break for lunch>
Here is the equivalent image with a microfocus adjustment setting of +6. I did take down and re-setup the gear so maybe the framing is a tad different but nothing that will alter the results. The lighting has also changed but it does not matter.
http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/POTN?authkey=YwMQelbhTZY#5304501576961609778
Note how there is a pretty even balance of acceptable sharpness both in front of and behind the focus target. I did increment the adjustment, one step at a time, and there is a clear trend from one shot to the next of improving focus accuracy. Note that the +/-50mm marks are both notably soft and about equally so. Ditto the +/-40mm marks, although they are acceptably sharp, especially if not cropping. I am happy that +6 is a good adjustment for this lens. I think + 7 is equally satisfactory.
The point is, if a 1 series body and L lens can focus this inaccurately (before adjustment), who is to say that a lesser body and lens may not also suffer from miscalibration woes?
Finally, here's the same lens on my 50D. With this combination I only need the microfocus adjustment set to +1.
http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/POTN?authkey=YwMQelbhTZY#5304505235265966274
learning
This is a fascinating subject/posting as a novice photographer and we are all learning a lot. I am going to the coast today for a few days and will see what I come up with terms of photos...will post a few when i return.
Keep up this conversation.....I continue to learn.....
But lately in terms of focus I am seeing a few things or learning a few things...(a) get close to the bird....long range shots are just plain a struggle to work with (b) use my mono-pod as much as possible to get any shakes out since I do not have an IS lens (c) 7.1 and 8 are good ap settings for my lens (d) use light to my advantage and take the shot from various angles so the shadows and lights fall better in the image (e) check the shutter speed and make sure it is high and adjust other settings to improve shutter.
I loved the links about sharpening that TDodd suggested....I am still working with sharpening skills ....
Question...what is Dof that Roy and Steven mentioned?
This is a fascinating subject/posting as a novice photographer and we are all learning a lot. I am going to the coast today for a few days and will see what I come up with terms of photos...will post a few when i return.
Keep up this conversation.....I continue to learn.....
But lately in terms of focus I am seeing a few things or learning a few things...(a) get close to the bird....long range shots are just plain a struggle to work with (b) use my mono-pod as much as possible to get any shakes out since I do not have an IS lens (c) 7.1 and 8 are good ap settings for my lens (d) use light to my advantage and take the shot from various angles so the shadows and lights fall better in the image (e) check the shutter speed and make sure it is high and adjust other settings to improve shutter.
I loved the links about sharpening that TDodd suggested....I am still working with sharpening skills ....
Question...what is Dof that Roy and Steven mentioned?
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OK_Scissortail
Oklahoma State Bird
Jim, I think DOF is depth of field. Best wishes birding at the coast!
OK_Scissortail
Oklahoma State Bird
Raw Images
Hi again, well I found out I was shooting in RAW but...........the photos are still being downloaded on computer as jpg. I have went over the book and evidently am missing what I am doing wrong to get the photos to show up in Raw. The book says the photos will download as one photo but you can pull the raw out too as well as the jpg. When I select show Raw nothing changes still jpg. I want both but am curious to work with Raw photos to see if I see a difference with processing the photos in my photo program. With saying that I am just trying to download the raw in my canon program for now and getting no where it seems. Any ideas?
I'm also working on getting closer to my still subjects, probably too close now, trial and error. I did find out that I had a few settings that had been changed on my menu of the camera. My picture style was all messed up, not sure if that may have caused problems. Overcast today so not sure I'll get to try out any shots to see if makes difference. If all else fails, next time I am in the town where I bought the camera will take it by and have them take a look at the camera or possibly even the zoom to see if a problem.
Hi again, well I found out I was shooting in RAW but...........the photos are still being downloaded on computer as jpg. I have went over the book and evidently am missing what I am doing wrong to get the photos to show up in Raw. The book says the photos will download as one photo but you can pull the raw out too as well as the jpg. When I select show Raw nothing changes still jpg. I want both but am curious to work with Raw photos to see if I see a difference with processing the photos in my photo program. With saying that I am just trying to download the raw in my canon program for now and getting no where it seems. Any ideas?
I'm also working on getting closer to my still subjects, probably too close now, trial and error. I did find out that I had a few settings that had been changed on my menu of the camera. My picture style was all messed up, not sure if that may have caused problems. Overcast today so not sure I'll get to try out any shots to see if makes difference. If all else fails, next time I am in the town where I bought the camera will take it by and have them take a look at the camera or possibly even the zoom to see if a problem.
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