Death Of The Alpha? (3 Viewers)

denco@comcast.n · Jan 10, 2017

james holdsworth said:
If what you say above is true, then you made that profit on the backs of readers here at Birdforum that had to wade through so many threads you started to pump up your Swaro's, to tell the world how they were the best, how anyone that didn't own an alpha was too cheap.....then, after maybe actually convincing a few to make the purchase, dumped them and then proceeded to list a litany of flaws that were never mentioned when you owned the bins.

But, hey, if you can make a buck, that's all that counts, right?

There were no major flaws with the Swarovski's. They are excellent binoculars. The focus is not as smooth as some binoculars because they use a greaseless focuser so it will work in sub-zero temperatures. I started to notice RB the more I used them and then when I tried the Tract's and Maven's and I really noticed the RB in the Swarovski. It is not really a flaw but a design decision by Swarovski to achieve a flat field and a 100% sharp FOV right to the edge. I liked the way the Maven's and Tract's panned better. I also preferred the bigger exit pupil of the Tract Toric 8x42 versus my SV 8x32. Wnen I would A B them I noticed that the SV was more finicky for eye placement than the Tract. The Tract was actually an easier binocular to use than the SV and it is excellent optically performing way above it's price point. I didn't MAKE any money on the sale of the Swarovski's I just broke even. I don't think you have to convince anybody to buy a Swarovski. They sell themselves. The Swarovski's are not a flawed binocular there was just things I like about the Tract and Maven better. A smoother focus with a speed I preferred and the lack of RB and more comfort with the 8x42 Tract Toric versus the smaller SV. When I look back on it I would probably have preferred the Swarovski SLC HD because it doesn't use the SV's flat field design. But I am happy with my choices and I used the extra money to buy a Canon 10x42 IS-L which I use a lot and enjoy for the IS system.

denco@comcast.n · Jan 10, 2017

etudiant said:
Seems to me that Denco is making a reasonable point, that optics are becoming mature enough that direct marketing can become the primary distribution channel.
We've seen that in computers and in TVs, products in the same price range that get shipped direct from the warehouse. If something goes wrong, just ship it back to replace it.
That is a very different business model from what Swaro and others have built, but it may be equally viable.
Note that this ignores any aspect of optical performance. The product shipped is 'good enough', just like a Dell is good enough. The benefit achievable by tweaking the product just does not justify the extra cost.
Note also that there are now no alpha computer or TV makers, contrary to our earlier experience. Sony today is not a premium brand, Compaq is dead and Hewlett Packard is struggling.
It may well be that this experience will repeat in the optics space. I certainly have not seen any compelling argument to the contrary on this thread.

I agree with you. What has happened in the electronics will happen in the optics industry. It will just take longer. It is a more efficient business model. Look at all the reduction in overhead. No middleman, no overhead for a repair department or parts department, no service department. Remember when we used to repair TV's and computers? Now what happened to the TV repairman? Same thing will happen to binoculars. Maven get's their binoculars from Kamakura and then they check them out and send them to the buyer. How easy and efficient is that.

Alexis Powell · Jan 10, 2017

etudiant said:
...Note also that there are now no alpha computer or TV makers, contrary to our earlier experience...

Although they sell many units, I would argue that Apple is an alpha computer brand. Their products are expensive compared to the nearest (or better featured) equivalents from other brands. I haven't kept up with monitors, but last I knew, although many much cheaper options are now available, a few brands (LG, NEC, Eizo...) make super accurately color profileable (and super expensive) monitors that are still considered alphas by digital photo editors.

--AP

Steve O4B · Jan 10, 2017

Troubador said:
MM

Please tell us whether you wear spectacles or not and whether you have the eyecups of the binoculars you have tried screwed all the way down or all the way up.

As far as 7x bins are concerned, at the British Bird Fair which is our biggest event that bins and scope makers exhibit at, if you ask almost any of the manufacturers they all say that everyone loves 7x but nobody buys them.

Lee

In 12 years we have only sold 1 alpha 7x binocular - a Zeiss Victory FL.

Lee's question about eyecups is critical. We are starting to see binoculars that have eye relief longer than their eyecups. If you wear eyeglasses, try extending the eyecups a notch or two and see if the blackout goes away. If you don't wear glasses, extend the eyecups all the way and if necessary, hold the binoculars even farther from your eyes. Zeiss has aftermarket eyecups for the 42mm Conquests that solve the blackout problem for those models. Leica is just encountering the same issue with the Noctivids for some people.

denco@comcast.n · Jan 10, 2017

Steve O4B said:
In 12 years we have only sold 1 alpha 7x binocular - a Zeiss Victory FL.

Lee's question about eyecups is critical. We are starting to see binoculars that have eye relief longer than their eyecups. If you wear eyeglasses, try extending the eyecups a notch or two and see if the blackout goes away. If you don't wear glasses, extend the eyecups all the way and if necessary, hold the binoculars even farther from your eyes. Zeiss has aftermarket eyecups for the 42mm Conquests that solve the blackout problem for those models. Leica is just encountering the same issue with the Noctivids for some people.

"In 12 years we have only sold 1 alpha 7x binocular - a Zeiss Victory FL."

Wow. I never knew 7x was THAT poor of a seller. Interesting. Nice post.

The-Wanderer · Jan 10, 2017

I wish Swarovski had sold aftermarket, less inset, eyecups so that more of the eye relief that the EL bins have would be available to the spectacle wearer.

crinklystarfish · Jan 10, 2017

I think an important consideration in this whole debate is largely overlooked.

I think that the most expensive raft of binoculars will continue to find a healthy uptake for the foreseeable future at least. Various contributors have already put forward perfectly good arguments for why this will be.

The unarticulated sub-text of the OP’s assertions is, I think, that there are other (sometimes completely intangible) qualities that make up the holistic use-of-a-binocular experience.

Prioritising these qualities is an entirely individual thing, what may be incredibly important for one person, may well be largely pointless for another. Adding to the complexity is that different people have different experiences with exactly the same instrument, priorities change over time, and a great deal depends on the specific use to which a particular optic is put.

And so, based on this premise, I think a legitimate argument for the ‘Death Of The Alpha’ could be made – but not so much along the lines of whether they’ll continue to sell, more along the lines of whether they are actually, away from the lab and in actual use-in-the-field, really ‘better’.

I don’t think they necessarily are, and that at least some optics users who forcefully perpetuate the ‘Alpha Myth’ may well find some interest in the theory of cognitive dissonance.

I own some ‘Alphas’ and they are brilliant: at some things, some of the time.

So are my non-alphas.

The very concept of ‘Alphas’ is a very powerful yet entirely artificial construct and something of a barrier to objectivity. Maybe it deserves to die.

Troubador · Jan 10, 2017

[email protected] said:
I wouldn't bet on it. I really believe Direct Marketing is the future of optics. Cut out the middleman and you can give the customer more value for their money. Your not paying for the Swarovski's family country club memberships.

No but you are paying for Tract's management's country club membership, their golf club membership, their holidays in Barbadoes, their Caddy Escalades etc etc.

All of which is fair enough as are Swaro's club fees.

Lee

dalat · Jan 10, 2017

Troubador said:
No but you are paying for Tract's management's country club membership, their golf club membership, their holidays in Barbadoes, their Caddy Escalades etc etc.

Plus those of the owners of the Asian factories

Words like "cut out the middle men" and "game changer" are marketing terms taken straight from the websites of Maven, Tract etc.

Leica writes about spectacular DOF and 3D and some people see it when looking through the bins. Maven says "gamechanging" and some people believe it by the letter. The power of marketing.

ceasar · Jan 10, 2017

Like I wrote here before in post #8 in this thread: This kind of direct marketing is not new at all.

It was done for decades by David Bushnell and Humphrey Swift with the binoculars they sold under their names. It could also be argued that Leupold did the same thing with their binoculars. Even Eagle Optics direct markets low cost binoculars under its own name while marketing a host of other brands.

These marketers were successful for a long time because they worked hard, made good choices in choosing the types of binoculars they sold and were able to get the financing to stay in business.

With hard work, good sense and financing Maven and Tract should be able to stay in business too.

Bob

denco@comcast.n · Jan 10, 2017

Troubador said:
No but you are paying for Tract's management's country club membership, their golf club membership, their holidays in Barbadoes, their Caddy Escalades etc etc.

All of which is fair enough as are Swaro's club fees.

Lee

I bet it is less expensive though. That is why their binoculars are less expensive. Several members of the Swarovski family are worth over a billion dollars.

denco@comcast.n · Jan 10, 2017

dalat said:
Plus those of the owners of the Asian factories

Words like "cut out the middle men" and "game changer" are marketing terms taken straight from the websites of Maven, Tract etc.

Leica writes about spectacular DOF and 3D and some people see it when looking through the bins. Maven says "gamechanging" and some people believe it by the letter. The power of marketing.

The Direct Marketing system must be more efficient. These new Kamakura binoculars are IMO very close to the alpha's for a LOT less money. This is going to be the wave of the future. It happened to TV's and computers and it will happen to binoculars. Do you repair your TV or computer? No, you get a new one under warranty or buy a new one. You can buy a 40 inch flatscreen TV now for $200.00!

Troubador · Jan 10, 2017

[email protected] said:
I wouldn't bet on it. I really believe Direct Marketing is the future of optics. Cut out the middleman and you can give the customer more value for their money.

Dennis

As Bob has said this 'direct selling' is old hat. Peter has reminded me that it is no different from Cabelas selling their Euro models. Cabelas is the middleman and so it is with your new heroes.

Nothing wrong with it but it isn't new and it hasn't revolutionised anything yet.

Lee

Troubador · Jan 10, 2017

[email protected] said:
I bet it is less expensive though. That is why their binoculars are less expensive. Several members of the Swarovski family are worth over a billion dollars.

Have you seen how much Swarovski Crystals can sell for? And they are fashionable all around the world. Some cars are even encrusted with them.
And a dollar isn't worth what it used to be. And as Bob pointed out there will be managment teams at the manufacturer with lifestyles to support.

But all of this is wandering off course.

The death of alphas? No. Some new and interesting bins? Yes.

Lee

dalat · Jan 10, 2017

Troubador said:
Some new and interesting bins? Yes.

And, as we learned in another thread, we can buy them in Europe too.

jgraider · Jan 10, 2017

Troubador said:
Dennis

As Bob has said this 'direct selling' is old hat. Peter has reminded me that it is no different from Cabelas selling their Euro models. Cabelas is the middleman and so it is with your new heroes.

Nothing wrong with it but it isn't new and it hasn't revolutionised anything yet.

Lee

Just curious Lee, as I have no clue......how much markup, would you say, that a Zeiss HT/SF, Swaro SV, or Leica UltravidHD/Noctovid has?

The-Wanderer · Jan 10, 2017

"And, as we learned in another thread, we can buy them in Europe too."

Did we? Kamakura does not appear to have a website showing a list of model types - or at least I have not found it!

Troubador · Jan 10, 2017

jgraider said:
Just curious Lee, as I have no clue......how much markup, would you say, that a Zeiss HT/SF, Swaro SV, or Leica UltravidHD/Noctovid has?

JG
Good question but you need to be more precise. Which markup?

The factory will make a markup when it sells to the agent or subsidiary in the territory, and the agent or subsidiary will make a markup when it sells to the dealer and the dealer will make a markup when it sells to the end customer.

Tract's model only involves two markups so should give opportunities to give lower prices to the end customer or a higher markup to Tract or a higher markup to both Tract and Kamakura.

I don't know any numbers but from remarks made by different dealers in different countries I don't think the dealers make huge wads on even the alphas.

Lee

typo · Jan 10, 2017

Troubador said:
JG
Good question but you need to be more precise. Which markup?

The factory will make a markup when it sells to the agent or subsidiary in the territory, and the agent or subsidiary will make a markup when it sells to the dealer and the dealer will make a markup when it sells to the end customer.

Tract's model only involves two markups so should give opportunities to give lower prices to the end customer or a higher markup to Tract or a higher markup to both Tract and Kamakura.

I don't know any numbers but from remarks made by different dealers in different countries I don't think the dealers make huge wads on even the alphas.

Lee

Starting with the £450 price Pete Gamby suggested for the Imagic BDA VHD. At today's dollar conversion would be $550 or over $100 less than the Tract Toric. Take off the 20% UK tax, it would be $190 less. Looks like cutting out the dealer will cost you about 40% more. Take out the overheads and get plenty of free advertising and someone's doing very well at the punter's expense. :C

David

jgraider · Jan 10, 2017

typo said:
Starting with the £450 price Pete Gamby suggested for the Imagic BDA VHD. At today's dollar conversion would be $550 or over $100 less than the Tract Toric. Take off the 20% UK tax, it would be $190 less. Looks like cutting out the dealer will cost you about 40% more. Take out the overheads and get plenty of free advertising and someone's doing very well at the punter's expense. :C

David

I would have guess about 40%, but it would have been that, a guess. Thanks for the info guys.

Death Of The Alpha? (3 Viewers)

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