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Mealy Redpoll West Mids (1 Viewer)

Field notes of bird (per J Oates). There is a rump pic on surfbirds:

"This bird looks very pale in the field and when it seen it flight it looks like it has to be an Arctic! The posterior end of the rump is tinged buff and has some fine streaking. At the anterior end there is some heavy streaking, but less than would be expected on a normal Mealy. Most of the rump area appears to be white, with some rather fine streaking and possibly a narrow unmarked band. I eventually got quite a prolonged view of the rump, but it was just after it had bathed and it wasn't ideal. There is a broad streak on the longest undertail covert (possibly 2 streaks), while the other undertail coverts all have narrow streaks. Good views were needed to see these."
 
Agreed with Rob that the bill is definitely not right (as I'm sure the observers knew) and once you've seen DH's shots of the UTCs, it's definitely a Mealy (isn't it?)... but this is an interesting bird! Just goes to show the enormous variability of Mealies, and how you've got to get all the features for a sound Arctic record.

Direct link to those undertail coverts... http://www.davehutton.fotopic.net/p47384862.html
 
Appears to be a very pale Mealy.

The undertail coverts, flanks and rump appear to have too much streaking for Arctic.

The bill looks bulky, and the red cap on the forehead seems too dark red.

'Exlipes' Arctic are tricky and often some immature birds are hard to seperate from pale, unstreaked Mealies, as they often have some streaking on the undertail coverts and rump and a lesser extent the flanks.

As Rob says some Arctic are not as pale as the palest mealies and can have some brownish tones to the upperparts.

Still nice shots of a nice bird. Any kind of a Redpoll is a rarity here in Western Japan!

Sean
 
It's a Mealy, albeit a very pale one. The beak is a good starting point. Its large and stout, and doesn't give that 'pushed in' feel of Arctic, which has a stubbier more Twite like beak. The jizz of the bird is also good for Mealy, in several of the pictures you can see the 'bull-necked' appearance, and this bulk is evident across the pictures. Also some quite heavy dark streaking on the flanks, would expect there to be less/lighter in Arctic.

That said there seems to be plenty of Mealies about of late, must be an Arctic lurking out there somewhere.

D
 
I always thought it was exilipes that appeared bulkier than flammea? With looser feathering and a more bull-necked appearance?

although Arctics can have slightly streaked UTCs, they are pencil thin and not as dark as on this bird perhaps

I think if i saw it in the field i'd run a mile or 'phone a friend'
 
Periwinkle said:
Can arctic be ruled out due to undertail streaking or other features?
Click to expand...

To answer the original question, after seeing the picture showing the rump I wouldn't rule out Arctic Redpoll. I agree that the bill looks a bit heavy, and that the widest streak on the undertail coverts looks a bit wide (according to Svensson maximum width for Arctic is 2 mm), but otherwise the bird looks pretty good for an Arctic Redpoll (wide white area on the rump, pale overall colour, purely white wing bars). The streaking on the flanks is not very fine, but the pointed rectrices indicate that the bird is a 1st c.y. bird, which often show heavier streaking there. Of course hybrids can be very difficult to id, if the species hybridize (IIRC in a rather comprehensive Norwegian study no hybrid pairs were found).

As an Arctic Redpoll would be a pretty good record in Britain, and since the pics aren't too bad, I would consult an expert before throwing the observation in the bin...

Tim Allwood said:
I always thought it was exilipes that appeared bulkier than flammea? With looser feathering and a more bull-necked appearance?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Edit: It appears that some adult Redpolls may also have rather pointed rectrices, so I'm not sure about the age. Svensson's guide gives the following lengths for the bills:
Carduelis flammea flammea: 7.2 - 10.4 mm
Carduelis hornemanni exilipes: 7.0 - 9.6 mm

Regarding the Norwegian study, at least there has been one study about hybridization between flammea and cabaret Redpolls, I'm not sure if also about hybridization between Redpoll and Arctic Redpoll. Nevertheless, hybridization between these species haven't been proved anywhere in the world.
 
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CAU said:
To answer the original question, after seeing the picture showing the rump I wouldn't rule out Arctic Redpoll. I agree that the bill looks a bit heavy, and that the widest streak on the undertail coverts looks a bit wide (according to Svensson maximum width for Arctic is 2 mm), but otherwise the bird looks pretty good for an Arctic Redpoll (wide white area on the rump, pale overall colour, purely white wing bars). The streaking on the flanks is not very fine, but the pointed rectrices indicate that the bird is a 1st c.y. bird, which often show heavier streaking there. Of course hybrids can be very difficult to id, if the species hybridize (IIRC in a rather comprehensive Norwegian study no hybrid pairs were found).

As an Arctic Redpoll would be a pretty good record in Britain, and since the pics aren't too bad, I would consult an expert before throwing the observation in the bin...



Yes.

Edit: It appears that some adult Redpolls may also have rather pointed rectrices, so I'm not sure about the age. Svensson's guide gives the following lengths for the bills:
Carduelis flammea flammea: 7.2 - 10.4 mm
Carduelis hornemanni exilipes: 7.0 - 9.6 mm

Regarding the Norwegian study, at least there has been one study about hybridization between flammea and cabaret Redpolls, I'm not sure if also about hybridization between Redpoll and Arctic Redpoll. Nevertheless, hybridization between these species haven't been proved anywhere in the world.
Click to expand...

A set of three images, any more comments would be welcome.
 

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This is very very difficult, a good case could be made for either species, some features strongly suggest one and some the other. On balance I now think its probably an Arctic but maybe Mealy can sometimes show so much unmarked white on the rump (??). In one of the later picks it does look small billed.

Rob
 
two features not mentioned on this bird so far

it has quite feathered tarsii
and the outer greater covs have a hint of brown to them

re bill size - not sure if this is as important from pix as we used to think. It varies a lot and can be very hard to judge

I remember Mike Pennington is very good on these with lots of in-hand and field experience from Shetland - maybe he will see this and comment
 
rob stoff said:
This is very very difficult, a good case could be made for either species, some features strongly suggest one and some the other. On balance I now think its probably an Arctic but maybe Mealy can sometimes show so much unmarked white on the rump (??). In one of the later picks it does look small billed.

Rob
Click to expand...

After spending 2 days watching this bird in the field with Steve Seal & co (trying to get some decent pics etc) i'm still inclined to go with Common Redpoll (Mealy) probably a male Islandic? even with it's pale colour it doesnt really scream out Arctic especially with the markings on the U/C i think most of the observers would say the same?? much as i'd like it to be an Arctic (would make a great midlands tick!! even better if it was inside Warks)
as for the feathered Tarsii Tom Perrins has also noted this ie Warks birds email list
Dave
 

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Dave Hutton said:
even with it's pale colour it doesnt really scream out Arctic especially with the markings on the U/C i think most of the observers would say the same??
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This is how I have understood redpoll identification, at least regarding the markings on the undertail coverts and on the rump:

1. The longest undertail coverts of Arctic Redpolls are either unstreaked or have streaks that are less than 2 mm in width (this is written in Svensson's passerine guide)
2. Only adult male Common Redpolls may have unstreaked rumps, but then the colour of the rump is red, not white (this is written in Delin's and Svensson's photographic guide to European birds)

So according to my understanding of redpoll identification, Common Redpoll can be excluded based on the second point, while Arctic Redpoll cannot be excluded based on the first point. Of course it is difficult to say if the broadest stripe on the UT coverts is wider or less wide than 2 mm, but here's a picture showing the undertail coverts of an Arctic Redpoll with one rather wide stripe (which looks as wide as on the Marsh Lane bird):
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hande/carhor1a.jpg

Regarding the outer greater coverts, they indeed have a hint of brown, but it is not untypical for Arctic Redpolls. Actually, if you look through all the photos of Arctic Redpoll here,

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind...lace=&order=nro,paiva+DESC&sel=&find=find&r=0

you'll note that most of them have a hint of brown on the greater coverts.
 
good points Cau

regarding rumps
in BB 2000 the paper states that Arctic should always show a white rump, hopefully unstreaked but some can show fine greyish streaks (but on extensive white base) while Mealy will alwys have a streaked rump (except ad males). This streaking may be thin in centre of rump but there should never be any extensive unsreaked white. Ad males may be unstreaked here but the rump will always be pink / pinkish red. So as CAU says the rump might point to Arctic... but some birds are ambiguous (see plates 47 and 48, which might be similar to this bird). It's hard to tell whether or not there is any blowing out of the white on the rump in the pix for my eyes..

The UTC can have shaft streaks on the longest 2-3. These are 'fine' and up to 2mm wide (Shirihai and Christie Macmillan states 1-3) and the BB paper says 5mm is technically possible. Mealy UTCs are variable and there is overlap but usually blacker and generally broader. See the Arctic in plate 54 for a huge UTC streak.

good day to look for redpolls, lovely and sunny.
 
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This is turning into an interesting and informative thread.

Given that the size of the bill and even streaking on the flanks are less than reliable field features and that the central UTC on Arctic (prsumably 1st winter) can be quite wide then I guess Arctic is more likely than Mealy, especially if CAU says the rump can only be white on Arctic Redpoll.

One other thing I notice on the Marsh Lane bird and the photos attached by CAU is that the tail on the Arctics and the Marsh lane bird are more forked and longer than the Mealy Redpoll in the pics. I just wonder if that is a reliable feature or just coincidence.

Sean
 
Tim Allwood said:
The UTC can have shaft streaks on the longest 2-3. These are 'fine' and up to 2mm wide (Shirihai and Christie Macmillan states 1-3) and the BB paper says 5mm is technically possible. Mealy UTCs are variable and there is overlap but usually blacker and generally broader. See the Arctic in plate 54 for a huge UTC streak.
Click to expand...

Actually when I looked again through the photos on Tarsiger, I noted this bird:

http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=karainio1171790292&lang=eng

which certainly has wider shaft streaks on the longest UTCs than 2 mm. So, it really seems that the rump is the best id feature (this is also emphasized by Delin and Svensson in their guide).
 
Tricky with some Arctic Redpolls which can be seen here (and elsewhere). This might be an Arctic or a Mealy, but with that clear wide unstreaked rump and even as such with the streaked flanks it could be an Arctic. A good point is to age every Redpoll you encounter. The subject bird seems on tail feathers to be a 1cy - however with the middle one(s) moulted and with a rounded tip. Also note moult contrast in greater coverts:

http://images5.fotopic.net/?iid=yr7le8&outx=0&quality=70&noresize=1

Take image 3 below up to 200% and note the widness of the UTC mark:

http://www.kvitter.se/snosiska1.htm

What concerns is the size of the bill - which I find - although variable - rather big for an Arctic, not the usually shorter conical with a straight or even slightly concave upper mandible. However there´s more variation than one want to belive.

Check these bills of different Redpolls.

http://web.telia.com/~u15702529/faltbestamning/nabben/siskornas_nabbar.htm

More Mealy:

http://web.telia.com/~u15702529/faltbestamning/nabben/mer_grasisknabbar.htm

and Arctic:

http://web.telia.com/~u15702529/faltbestamning/nabben/mer_snosisknabbar.htm

Also have a look at these good images, klick for more at the bottom which say´s 'Nästa'

http://www.kustobsar.se/main/bilder/bilder.asp?artkod=4770


and these: Klick on side nr.

http://www.praktejder.se/images/0411/Snosiska1MN-041106.htm

2cy female:

http://www.birds.se/stefan/snsis.htm

JanJ
 
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Excellent thread - learning a lot from this. I was previously under the impression that the undertail covert streaks should never be wider than a very fine pencil line on exilipes (and that therefore this must be a flammea).... but given the references and photos of Arctics with relatively broad UTC streaks, I really have no idea what this is!
 
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