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Using AT shotgun mic with Sony PCM-M10? (1 Viewer)

Greetings BirdForum/Bird Sounds readers,

I've recently started recording bird sounds with a Sony PCM-M10. Thus far I am ecstatic with ambient recordings I've made with the PCM-M10's two built-in omni condenser mics. But when I plug in my Audio-Technica 897 shotgun to the external mic jack, the sound level drops significantly, even with the mic sensitivity setting at "High" and with the mic pointed straight at a really well-projected song (e.g. a Carolina Wren singing at a distance of about 20 meters), so much so that I have to revert back to the built-in mics, when I would really prefer to "zoom" in on a single sound point. There is an option on the PCM-M10 for "Plug in Power," but I hear no obvious difference between either choice: neither the two AA batteries in the AT mic itself, nor the internal power of the PCM-M10 seem capable of producing a useful signal from anything less than an unnaturally loud sound source.

Does anyone out there have any possible solutions to offer, or --- insofar as I'm a complete novice with shotgun mics -- is it more likely that I'm simply expecting far too much from the AT-897, which is simply incapable of capturing a normal bird song with the same sensitivity as the built-in omni condenser mics? Do I need additional power for the shotgun mic, or a parabolic dish?

Thanks in advance for any wisdom you can share!

jg
 
jg,

Seeing that you've not received a reply, let me see if I can help. I'm new at nature sound recording, I'm just getting started myself however I have a lifetime career behind me in underwater accoustics as an equipment designer to lean on for sound equipment experience. I say that first to caution you that what I say is not to be taken as from someone with a lot of experience with these new microphones and little digital recorders as used for nature sound recording today.

In the process of deciding what I was going to use, I received what I consider to be some very good advise and answers to my questions. This information is what I intend to share with you...

First, a web site link that I found to be right on target about hooking up shotgun microphones to the type of digital recorder we are using. In my case its the Olympus LS-11 however the basic concept is not much different than the Sony PCM-M10 which was my other choice.

http://www.avisoft.com/tutorial_mic_recorder_connection.htm

I also looked at the AT shotgun microphones, in particular the AT-897 however I heard from several people that the AT-897 has low sensitivity and instead I have decided to go with the Sennheiser ME66 / K6 shotgun microphone which I'm now waiting to arrive.

Here is a quote from Paul Jacobson sent to me on another forum:

"The LS-10's lack of XLR input and phantom power limits your choices unless you add a phantom power supply to your kit. I feel this defeats the point of having a small handheld recorder, and you are best to stick to PIP or a shotgun that will run from an internal AA cell. Within these constraints the K6/ME66 is your best choice, as it has a winning combination of low noise and high sensitivity. Alternatives like the AT897 or NTG-1are ok but suffer in comparison with the ME66 due to relatively high self-noise and low sensitivity. When I first started recording I used an AT897 with a Sony minidisc recorder but if you have the available funds the K6/Me66 is a better choice."

(The LS-10 Paul refers to is the prior model Olympus recorder very similar to the LS-11 and the Sony PCM-M10)

However for all this I have heard recordings made by others with the AT-897 on older different type recorders that sounded very good. It may well be that there is a poor impedance match between the AT-897 and the new digital recorders but I'm guessing, I've not had a need to explore that...

Another person who influenced my thinking about the Sennheiser ME 66 / K6 vs the AT-897 is a person who uses a ME 66/K6 with a Olympus LS-10 and raved about it...

The most important item in this discussion is the link above to microphone connections, take all the rest with a grain of salt...

Hope this is a bit of help...

Good Luck...
Mitch...
 
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@Mitch

"Alternatives like the AT897 or NTG-1are ok but suffer in comparison with the ME66 due to relatively high self-noise and low sensitivity."

The ME66 does cost twice as much as the AT897.

I don't know about the NTG-1 but the NTG-2 seems to be universally loved for the audio quality, including low noise. 76 reviews at B&H and they are pretty much all stellar. NTG-2 is only $30 more than the At897, and $200 less than the ME66
 
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Mitch, Ursinus, thanks kindly to you both for your informative replies. As you suggest, Mitch, my feeling is that this may simply be a case of a technical shortcoming (i.e. the AT-897's relatively low sensitivity) instead of a compatibility issue. I did try to post the same question to another forum ("gearslutz"), where one respondent believed that I'm not achieving the correct conversion between the mono AT-897 and the single stereo input on the PCM-M10 recorder. I, in turn, pointed out that when I bought the AT-897 from B & H, they recommended the following transformer, which I purchased along with the AT-897:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/589872-REG/Pearstone_8111240_LMT100_Low_to.html

...which appears (?) to be designed specifically for converting a mono mic with XLR/M to a stereo/F input.

So I don't think the problem lies with the adapter. Rather, it just may be that the AT-897 needs a significant sound level in order to perform as designed. And, of course, birdsongs at a distance demand high mic sensitivity.

Since I can't afford either a ME66 or a NTG-2 anytime soon, I guess I'm going to have to search for an inexpensive means of strengthening the AT-897's sensitivity. So -- just in case the problem does, in fact, lie with my adapter -- I think I'll first try an alternative XLR mono-to-stereo-mini-plug cable and see what happens.

By the way, thank you, Mitch, for that link to Avisoft -- I have never seen that site before. I will study what they have to say and see if other viable solutions appear.

In the meantime, if anyone happens to know of a way to increase the sensitivity of the AT-897 for budget portable digital recorder with a single stereo mic input, please let me know!

- James
 
Just a brief follow up re microphone sensitivity...

As part of my process in selecting my equipment, I looked at three microphones and compared the sensitivity rating given on the manufacturers web sites. They do not make it easy as each uses a slightly different technical description and I spent some time converting this into a single format of layman's terms in order to make a meaningful comparison..

What I came up with:

when placed in a chamber with a sound source generating a 1 Khz signal at 1PA SPL, the output of each microphone is:

AT-897 ....... 8.9mv or -41db / SNR = 77db

NTG-2 ....... 15 mv or -36db / SNR = 76db

ME 66/K6 ... 50 mv or -26db / SNR = ???

Unfortunately the info I have from the Sennheiser web site is very unclear about SNR (signal to noise ratio), it states in two places, 21db and 10db as equivalent noise level and gives no further explanation... I did not pursue this further as what I have confirms what I'm hearing from others about the Sennheiser ME66/K6 microphone and I decided I had enough information to order one...

Next week I should find out for myself if my choice was the right one.

Thanks,
Mitch & Shadow...
 
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So -- just in case the problem does, in fact, lie with my adapter -- I think I'll first try an alternative XLR mono-to-stereo-mini-plug cable and see what happens.


James, I investigated that type of impedance matching cable you have and was told it was unnecessary with the PCM digital recorders and the type/makes of shotgun microphones we are discussing. Somewhere I read some information that confirms that and I called the Olympus tech support who also confirmed it as far as the LS-10/LS-11 recorders are concerned.

Then. an interesting event happened, when I was looking for mic cable schematics and information, I found a mic cable, a XLR3F to 3.5mm TRS miniature stereo plug and decided I'd buy it and if needed, I could rewire the XLR connector if it didn't work as planned.

The Cable is Hosatech XVM105 and the distributor is www.sweetwater.com

Late last night I placed an order on line for one at the price of $9.69 with free shipping...

At 10:00 AM this morning, my phone rang, it was AJ Peterson at Sweetwater calling to tell me the cable was in stock and he'd be mailing it to me today...

As it turns out AJ is a very knowledgeable person about mic cables and he explained to me that this cable was made specifically for using the high end mics/XLR connectors with camcorders and small portable recorders and that the tip and ring of the 3.5mm plug were both wired to pin 2 of the XLR connector so the mono signal of the ME 66 is on both channels or "tracks" of the recorder...

Boy, talk about customer service!!!

All this for $9.69 with free shipping and I received a followup e-mail with shipping/tracking information at 12:00 Noon...

Next time I need a cable, I know where to go!

Mitch...
 
That's very useful information, Mitch. I've never purchased anything from sweetwater, but it sounds and looks like an excellent online vendor for cables (etc.). I think I will, in fact, try to get the Hosatech XVM105 you mentioned and go from there...
Thanks again,
- James
 
That's very useful information, Mitch. I've never purchased anything from sweetwater, but it sounds and looks like an excellent online vendor for cables (etc.). I think I will, in fact, try to get the Hosatech XVM105 you mentioned and go from there...
Thanks again,
- James

James,
To follow up on my experience with microphones and the LS-11 recorder, this past Thursday the Sennheiser ME66/K6 microphone arrived and Friday, the US Mail delivered the box from Sweetwater.com with the HosaTech XVM-105F cable.

Its a marriage made in heaven. Plug and play! (or record that is).

By 2:30 in the afternoon I was wandering about the treefarm hand holding the microphone in one hand and the recorder in the other. For a first test it was a huge success even without the windscreen and shock mount which are still in the hands of UPS to be delivered next week.

Along the back edge of the treefarm, in the woods beyond I could hear an Oriole, he was about 100 feet back in the tall oak trees, I couldn't see him and pointed the ME66 microphone in his general direction and recorded one of his bursts of song.

At that point I returned home and downloaded the short recording and its full of the Oriole's audio, a very satisfactory first test.

Prior to this test, I've been using a Sennheiser MKE 300 small shotgun mic with a monaural cord and plug made for video cameras. The difference is like night and day, there is no comparison in amount of sound the ME 66/K6 puts out compared to the MKE 300 which is a real surprise to me.

The MKE 300 is specked at 16mv/Pa sensitivity (same as the NTG-2) and the ME 66 is specked at 50mv/Pa and man, what a difference in the field.

Another key difference noticed right off, the HosaTech XVM-105F cable, XLR pin 2 being wired to both tip and ring of the 1/8" plug so the ME 66/K6 output is on both channels of the LS-11 which makes a huge improvement to my ear...

And sensitivity to sounds in the distance, the MKE 300 is barely able to record a bird two hundred feet distant, its right at the noise floor, you can barely hear it when played back. Yet the same bird with the ME66/K6 is about half scale on the record bargraph.

So far, I am very pleased with how this is turning out...

Mitch & Shadow:D ...
 
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Optimum Use of Sony PCM-M10 and Professional Microphones

* #12
wrosenkr
Gear interested
*
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1
Confusion About Pro Microphone and PCM-M10
I have two of the Sony PCM-M10s and have been 100% pleased with their performance when using the internal microphones, external professional microphones and the line-in input to make 48-kHz 24-bit recordings.

For the "mic" level input, which is designed only for consumer-type microphones, the Sony manual says, "We recommend you use the Sony ECM-MS957 electret condenser [stereo] microphone." This consumer-type microphone, unlike professional-type microphones, was designed to work with what the manual calls "plug-in power" to power the microphone (set in the menu). This simply powers the microphone for a "mic" level signal that the recorder amplifies internally.

The intended way for users to connect a professional microphone (including the shotgun mentioned in the first question of this thread) to the PCM-M10 is to plug the microphone's balanced XLR cable into a preamp that provides phantom power (I bought a Sound Devices MM-1 for this purpose) and then connect the line-level output of the preamp to the "line in" on the PCM-M10 (using a short Sound Devices cable with XLR female mono to 1/8-in stereo TRS male plug). The professional microphone's mono signal then is recorded perfectly to both stereo tracks on the PCM-M10 with this method.

The signal level output is manually adjustable at the preamp and the signal level input also is manually adjustable on the PCM-M10. The recordings, with level adjusted correctly, are free of electronic noise and have the same full dynamic range as when recording correctly with the internal microphones. The metering and LEDs make this easy.

If I understood the first post correctly, the poster has been trying to match a professional microphone to the consumer mic-level input on the PCM-M10. The mic-level input was not designed for this, but the Sony manual is not especially helpful in distinguishing "plug-in power" from the phantom power used by many professional microphones. Apparently, Sony was trying to explain the operation of this recorder to average consumers without using the terminology familiar to audio professionals.

I am not an audio professional or a bird song recordist but have read books explaining these differences, making the basic technology fairly simple to apply for my needs. Hope this helps clear up the basic issue.
*
 
Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum, but found this thread very helpful.

Recently I bought a shotgun condenser microfone and portable recorder to enhance my recordings. I bought the Sony PCM-M10 portable recorder, which is very great actually, and the Sony ECM-674/9X shotgun microfone. But i'm having some problems with my recordings, especially when using the external mic I bought.

I wish to know if the problem could be my microfone (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...fications), has anyone ever used it? Or is it the adapter, or impedance problems?

Thanks in advance,

Luiz Gabriel Mazzoni
 
Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum, but found this thread very helpful.

Recently I bought a shotgun condenser microfone and portable recorder to enhance my recordings. I bought the Sony PCM-M10 portable recorder, which is very great actually, and the Sony ECM-674/9X shotgun microfone. But i'm having some problems with my recordings, especially when using the external mic I bought.

I wish to know if the problem could be my microfone (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...fications), has anyone ever used it? Or is it the adapter, or impedance problems?

Thanks in advance,

Luiz Gabriel Mazzoni


Luiz,

Welcome...

Several questions that need answers if you please,

You mention an adapter, please describe this?

Please describe in detail what the problem you are having?
 
Okay Mitch, sorry for the lack of information.

The problem I'm having is pretty much the same of the creator of the thread. The built-in microfone of my recorder (PCM-M10) works perfectly. But when I plug in the external mic (Sony ECM 674/9x) the sound is very low. Even in "manual" mode and leveling up the "Rec level" to the maximum. The first problem is that the sound comes out only in the left side of the headphones. The second is the low volume of the sound, even in the maximum of the recording level.

I'm using a cable with XLR female in one side (connected to the mic) and a 3.5mm pin on the other side. I didn't found any cable to buy here in my town, so I asked this guy to build one for me. The problem could be the cable, or it could be the microfone. That's why I'm asking if anyone has ever used this mic (Sony ECM 674/9x).

If I understand, I need a cable that transform the mono sound coming from the mic to the stereo receiver input of the recorder. Am I correct? (I don't really master this electrical stuff, more of a amateur user). If yes, and having in mind that I pretty much won't be able to buy this cable online (only available in the US stores, and it's very expensive the shipping to Brazil), I need to tell the guy that built the first cable to me, to design the correct cable.

Once again, thanks in advance!

Luiz Gabriel Mazzoni
 
Hi Luiz,

At 05:10 PM 6/26/2010 -0400, you wrote:

"Okay Mitch, sorry for the lack of information.

The problem I'm having is pretty much the same of the creator of the thread. The built-in microfone of my recorder (PCM-M10) works perfectly. But when I plug in the external mic (Sony ECM 674/9x) the sound is very low. Even in "manual" mode and leveling up the "Rec level" to the maximum. The first problem is that the sound comes out only in the left side of the headphones. The second is the low volume of the sound, even in the maximum of the recording level."


My answer:
First thing you need to do is solve the monaural (mono) problem. One possibility is to look in the PCM-10 recorder menus for a setting for recording in "mono" mode.

If you don't have any luck with this, then, yes, put a 3.5mm TRS stereo plug on the cable and wire both the tip and the ring to pin 2 of the XLR3F connector going to the microphone.

You wrote:
"I'm using a cable with XLR female in one side (connected to the mic) and a 3.5mm pin on the other side. I didn't found any cable to buy here in my town, so I asked this guy to build one for me. The problem could be the cable, or it could be the microfone. That's why I'm asking if anyone has ever used this mic (Sony ECM 674/9x)."

My answer:

Regrettably I do not know of anyone to use this Sony microphone and I was not able to find complete specifications for it however, if it works the same as the Sennheiser ME66/K6 which it sounds very much like from what I did find for information, it should work reasonably well with the Sony PCM-M10 recorder. Specifications are very much like the ME66/K6 with the exception of sensitivity, shows the Sony mic about the same as the Sennheiser MKE300...

You wrote:
"If I understand, I need a cable that transform the mono sound coming from the mic to the stereo receiver input of the recorder. Am I correct? (I don't really master this electrical stuff, more of a amateur user). If yes, and having in mind that I pretty much won't be able to buy this cable online (only available in the US stores, and it's very expensive the shipping to Brazil), I need to tell the guy that built the first cable to me, to design the correct cable."


My answer:
Yes, you are correct however, switching the recorder to "mono" record mode should cause it to work with a cable with the 3.5mm TS mono plug. On the XLR3F connector, pins 1 and 3 should be tied together and the audio signal is on pin 2. The mic cable signal wire goes to pin 2 and the second wire, the signal common wire and/or shield goes to pins 1 & 3. The wire coming from pin 2 of the XLR3F should go to both tip & ring of the 3.5mm TRS stereo connector if you decide you need to make another cable.

One other item in the menus of the recorder may be a "Plug in power" (PIP) option command to turn PIP off. When you use a microphone with its own battery or external phantom power, this PIP function should be turned off... Otherwise you may get a higher than normal background noise in the recording...

Hope this helps...
 
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Luiz,

Since posting the above information in post #14, I've been sitting here reading the Sony PCM-M10 manual. I see no menu option for setting the recorder to "Mono" mode so it looks like you need to remake the cable to get sound on both channels.

I did find the PIP command, see page 82, and you should set this to "off" for a microphone with its own battery or external power...
 
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Mitch, thanks a lot for the help.

I had already looked for the "mono" option in the menus and in the manual of the PCM-M10. It really doesn't exist. And yes, I turned the PIP option to OFF. In fact, when you plug the external mic, the recorder automatically asks if you want to turn PIP on. With all that said, turns out that the problem might be the cable (remember I'm only getting sound on one side of the headphones), and with the information you provided on the last post I'll tell the guy to design the correct one for me and hope it works. After I get results i'll post here. Hope at least the mic has some good quality and sensitivity!

See ya!
 
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