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To Kill a Grackle (1 Viewer)

The problem for our native Red Squirrel Sciurus vulgaris is that the non-native Grey Squirrel Sciurus carolinensis lives at higher densities and by doing so muscles the Reds out of the neighbourhood and the Grey carries the parapox virus which does not affect the Greys but is often fatal to the Reds.

And yes they are a different species (different genus actually) from the American Red Squirrel Tamiasciurus hudsonicus.

Generally speaking (you know someone is fudging a host of issues when they say this LOL) human resources only come under threat if they are exported. By that I mean that say an Appalachian village traps or shoots squirrels for food. It is a more than even chance they will do this with a view to doing the same next year and the year after because its for their survival benefit. When the benefit sought is something else and the squirrels are killed to trade with the village down the river (ie 'exported') then if what is obtained in return is sufficiently attractive the squirrels may end up wiped out in the name of trade.

Bringing this a little further back towards the thread of 'To Kill a Gracklebird' my proposal that folks should have to eat what they shoot means they don't get to ignore or 'export' what they kill.

But this will never happen.

Lee
 
Generally speaking (you know someone is fudging a host of issues when they say this LOL) human resources only come under threat if they are exported. By that I mean that say an Appalachian village traps or shoots squirrels for food. It is a more than even chance they will do this with a view to doing the same next year and the year after because its for their survival benefit. When the benefit sought is something else and the squirrels are killed to trade with the village down the river (ie 'exported') then if what is obtained in return is sufficiently attractive the squirrels may end up wiped out in the name of trade.

Bringing this a little further back towards the thread of 'To Kill a Gracklebird' my proposal that folks should have to eat what they shoot means they don't get to ignore or 'export' what they kill.

But this will never happen.

Lee

excellent post IMO. I think Lee and I are thinking similarly here on a couple of issues. But, it's true as you point out that what we'd like to see happen won't happen.

very good answers by all really and I appreciate the various perspectives...it gives me more to think about and also challenges my own views.
Good points too about top predator animals being re-introduced to thin out overpopulated species, but then farmers don't like having their chickens and cows attacked, so there's always that conflict.

And, as demonstrated in this thread we tend to be biased towards animals that we simply like more or have some sentimental attachment to. So, our own prejudices will sometimes dictate our behavior in conservation efforts and that's just human nature in a nut shell...we're all a little guilty there IMO.
 
Oh, dear...squirrel brains! I had not even considered the possibility of eating THAT part of a squirrel!

In fact, I think rats are a decent food animal: not small rats, like Norway or roof rats, but giant pouched rats; those are farmed for food in some areas. So they must be pretty tasty, if that many people want to eat them. But I would not want to try it. I am not a proponent of keeping wild animals as pets, but I used to be a huge sucker for pets being given up by their owners, before I moved to a pet-free building. Thus, I ended up having a giant pouched rat in my house for a few years. It was not an amiable beastie: it made nests EVERYWHERE, ripped up EVERYTHING, and bit me every day (mainly my toes). But I became fond of it, anyway, so eating a rat would feel somewhat akin to digging into a bowl of dog stew.
 
Thus, I ended up having a giant pouched rat in my house for a few years. It was not an amiable beastie: it made nests EVERYWHERE, ripped up EVERYTHING, and bit me every day (mainly my toes). But I became fond of it, anyway, so eating a rat would feel somewhat akin to digging into a bowl of dog stew.

Was the big rat ever affectionate or respond to affection... like petting him ?
 
Not really; you couldn't pet her. She'd allow it for a moment or two, then bite your fingers. She did occasionally do something that might be construed as affectionate, like dropping pieces of food at my feet (an attempt to share, perhaps?), and once I woke up and discovered her sitting on me. (She had an enormous cage, about six feet long and four feet tall, which she was supposed to be in while I wasn't awake to supervise her, but she figured out how to open it, early on. Attempts to lock her in resulted in her chewing holes in the plastic base of the cage, at which point, I simply tried to tempt her in there with food, with varying degrees of success.)

I think the most reliable indication that she didn't totally loathe me was that she did like to play with me. She'd sneak up on me like a predator, belly-crawling across the floor, and bite my feet, then bounce away like a mad thing, jumping all over the place. It was very clear that she enjoyed this, especially if I got up and chased her for a while. I did not enjoy it so much, though; although she did not bite my feet hard, she did draw blood. (Nipping is part of play for giant pouched rats. Their skins are protected by fur. Human skin is not. The rat is likely unaware that its playful bites are genuinely annoying.)

Eventually, she died of cancer, which was very unfortunate. I think I may have fed her wrong. It's hard to figure out exactly what a wild animal should be eating. She was about six years old, which is much longer than a regular old rat would live, but not as long as a giant rat can live. (They can last about ten years, though I have no idea what the average lifespan is.)
 
Not really; you couldn't pet her. She'd allow it for a moment or two, then bite your fingers. She did occasionally do something that might be construed as affectionate, like dropping pieces of food at my feet (an attempt to share, perhaps?), and once I woke up and discovered her sitting on me. (She had an enormous cage, about six feet long and four feet tall, which she was supposed to be in while I wasn't awake to supervise her, but she figured out how to open it, early on. Attempts to lock her in resulted in her chewing holes in the plastic base of the cage, at which point, I simply tried to tempt her in there with food, with varying degrees of success.)

I think the most reliable indication that she didn't totally loathe me was that she did like to play with me. She'd sneak up on me like a predator, belly-crawling across the floor, and bite my feet, then bounce away like a mad thing, jumping all over the place. It was very clear that she enjoyed this, especially if I got up and chased her for a while. I did not enjoy it so much, though; although she did not bite my feet hard, she did draw blood. (Nipping is part of play for giant pouched rats. Their skins are protected by fur. Human skin is not. The rat is likely unaware that its playful bites are genuinely annoying.)

Eventually, she died of cancer, which was very unfortunate. I think I may have fed her wrong. It's hard to figure out exactly what a wild animal should be eating. She was about six years old, which is much longer than a regular old rat would live, but not as long as a giant rat can live. (They can last about ten years, though I have no idea what the average lifespan is.)

thanks for the story ! it sounds like she enjoyed your company 'in her own way' :)
 
Not really; you couldn't pet her. She'd allow it for a moment or two, then bite your fingers. She did occasionally do something that might be construed as affectionate, like dropping pieces of food at my feet (an attempt to share, perhaps?), and once I woke up and discovered her sitting on me. (She had an enormous cage, about six feet long and four feet tall, which she was supposed to be in while I wasn't awake to supervise her, but she figured out how to open it, early on. Attempts to lock her in resulted in her chewing holes in the plastic base of the cage, at which point, I simply tried to tempt her in there with food, with varying degrees of success.)

I think the most reliable indication that she didn't totally loathe me was that she did like to play with me. She'd sneak up on me like a predator, belly-crawling across the floor, and bite my feet, then bounce away like a mad thing, jumping all over the place. It was very clear that she enjoyed this, especially if I got up and chased her for a while. I did not enjoy it so much, though; although she did not bite my feet hard, she did draw blood. (Nipping is part of play for giant pouched rats. Their skins are protected by fur. Human skin is not. The rat is likely unaware that its playful bites are genuinely annoying.)

Eventually, she died of cancer, which was very unfortunate. I think I may have fed her wrong. It's hard to figure out exactly what a wild animal should be eating. She was about six years old, which is much longer than a regular old rat would live, but not as long as a giant rat can live. (They can last about ten years, though I have no idea what the average lifespan is.)

Although this is off track I can't help sharing with you a similar experience I had with a cat which lived next door to us when we were on holiday on the Isle of Harris in the Outer Hebrides. The cat belonged to the man who rented our cottage to us and would come stalking around to investigate us as cats do.

One evening we came back from our walking and birding and while I was taking my boots off the cat came prowling by and while I was struggling getting my final boot off the cat pounced on my other foot whose toes had been waggling about due to the effort of me trying to take off the last boot.

But heres the thing. When I finally released my foot from its death-bite (ouch) it hopped away and then came sashaying by, head in the air, pretending not to notice my foot with the toes that I was waggling deliberately and when it was half a length past my foot as if it wasn't going to play, it turned like lightning and pounced on my toes again! We have a picture somewhere showing the muscles bulging in its forehead at the effort of biting through my thick socks. But its co-operation in a game of play and imagination was so funny.

My foot didn't agree though..


LOL Lee
 
Annabeth - Yes, definitely in her own way; everything had to be on her terms. I think she had some kind of feeling that she was not in the right place (I think she was only second- or third-generation captive bred), and did not want to adapt. I often saw her trying out behaviours that didn't match her surroundings, but I did my best to let her do what she wanted, so she wouldn't have a sad life.

Troubador - Ha, ha; that is funny! I think nipping or biting is considered playful behaviour for a lot of animals...of course, we don't agree! But even through the discomfort of a nip, you kind of have to laugh at their antics!
 
Am I guilty of necroposting? Perhaps. But, did this thread catch my attention? It caught my attention ALL THE WAY from Google when I Google'd "Killing Grackles". It was the first thread that came up. Hooray BF.net! The OP is so far off base that I felt it needed addressing, and since the Sr. Members of this forum most likely aren't totally up to speed on laws in the US, it's hard to read something that is categorically false on the interwebs. Since I have a membership at this forum, I felt a response was in order.

1. Grackles ARE NOT protected:
50 CFR 21.43 - Depredation order for blackbirds, cowbirds, grackles, crows, and magpies.

§ 21.43 Depredation order for blackbirds, cowbirds, grackles, crows, and magpies.
You do not need a Federal permit to control the species listed in the table below if they are committing or about to commit depredations on ornamental or shade trees, agricultural crops, livestock, or wildlife, or when concentrated in such numbers and manner that they are a health hazard or other nuisance:

Blackbirds Cowbirds Grackles Crows Magpies
Brewer's (Euphagus cyanocephalus) Bronzed (Molothrus aeneus) Boat-tailed (Quiscalus major) American (Corvus brachyrhynchos) Black-billed (Pica hudsonia).
Red-winged (Agelaius phoeniceus) Brown-headed (Molothrus ater) Common (Quiscalus quiscula) Fish (Corvus ossifragus) Yellow-billed (Pica nuttalli).
Yellow-headed (Xanthocephalus xanthocephalus) Shiny (Molothrus bonariensis) Great-tailed (Quiscalus mexicanus) Northwestern (Corvus caurinus)
Greater Antillean (Quiscalus niger)
(a) You must attempt to control depredation by species listed under this depredation order using non-lethal methods before you may use lethal control.
(b) In most cases, if you use a firearm to kill migratory birds under the provisions of this section, you must use nontoxic shot or nontoxic bullets to do so. See § 20.21(j) of this chapter for a listing of approved nontoxic shot types. However, this prohibition does not apply if you use an air rifle, an air pistol, or a 22 caliber rimfire firearm for control of depredating birds under this order.
(c) If you exercise any of the privileges granted by this section, you must allow any Federal, State, tribal, or territorial wildlife law enforcement officer unrestricted access at all reasonable times (including during actual operations) over the premises on which you are conducting the control. You must furnish the officer whatever information he or she may require about your control operations.
(d) You may kill birds under this order only in a way that complies with all State, tribal, or territorial laws or regulations. You must have any State, tribal, or territorial permit required to conduct the activity.
(e) You may not sell, or offer to sell, any bird, or any part thereof, killed under this section, but you may possess, transport, and otherwise dispose of the bird or its parts.
(f) Any person or agency acting under this depredation order must provide to the appropriate Regional Migratory Bird Permit Office an annual report for each species taken. You can find the addresses for the Regional Migratory Bird Permit Offices in § 2.2 of subchapter A of this chapter. You must submit your report by January 31st of the following year, and you must include the following information:
(1) Your name, address, phone number, and e-mail address;
(2) The species and number of birds taken;
(3) The months in which the birds were taken;
(4) The State(s) and county(ies) in which the birds were taken; and
(5) The general purpose for which the birds were taken (such as for protection of agriculture, human health and safety, property, or natural resources).
(g) The Office of Management and Budget has approved the information collection requirements associated with this depredation order and assigned OMB Control No. 1018-0146. We may not conduct or sponsor and you are not required to respond to a collection of information unless it displays a currently valid OMB control number. You may send comments on the information collection requirements to the Service's Information Collection Clearance Officer, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, MS 222-ARLSQ, 1849 C Street, NW., Washington, DC 20240.
[75 FR 75156, Dec. 2, 2010]

TL;DR? You can kill any of the above species that have or are about to commit depredation on a number of items in your yard. You may kill them and get rid of them. You cannot sell them.

2. @Gilmore Girl, I'll answer your question from a bird lover perspective, and then follow with a answer from a small farm owner perspective.
The above listed birds are considered non-native invasive species. That means, simply, wildlife that was introduced into an environment artificially.
What's wrong with it? In Arizona, we have Grackles, Sparrows, Starlings, Blackbirds and Eurasian Collared Dove. In the case of the Grackles, Sparrows, and Blackbirds, these birds raid nests, killing the young AND females of a breeding pair, decimating the numbers of native species in one killing. In the case of Arizona, I'm talking about Cactus Wren, Woodpeckers, Roadrunners, both species of Dove, and in some cases Egrets, and Herons. While they don't have the size to eat Egrets and Herons, they squat in the nests and eat the food that was meant for the chicks. They take the nests, and procreate. And procreate. Up to 4 cycles before moving on to new territories often in numbers greater than 200 adults. Starlings do the same, but wait until they create a "murmuration" and then set out to travel. There are THOUSANDS of birds in a murmuration. All of these species are marauders. They kill with impunity, steal without regard, and move into new habitats in greater numbers.

Eurasian Collared Doves are large in size. They consume huge amounts of food. As such, they push out native species like Mourning and Inca Doves.

As a farmer, these birds wreak havoc on my poultry. They intimidate my chickens and scare them off of their food. Underfed chickens don't lay eggs. I feed, and supplement income with eggs. They're directly affecting my income.

Lastly, and most importantly, Grackles are known carriers of avian influenza A/H7N3. Transmittable to BOTH poultry and humans. There are well documented outbreaks of this flu in Mexico decimating the numbers of egg laying and meat producing chickens. This flu virus is also transmittable to humans.

Spend time in Austin and you will see countless numbers of Grackles. That's it. Hundreds of thousands of them. They have taken over Austin and have pushed out all of the native species.

Hope it answers your questions. Sorry for necroposting. Hope we can continue civilly.
 
Facts. I'll provide all of the facts you wish.

From the Fish and Wildlife Service:

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/PDFs/Final%20Rule%2050%20CFR%20Part%2021%20November%202014.pdf

SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and
Wildlife Service (Service), change the
regulations governing control of
depredating blackbirds, cowbirds,
grackles, crows, and magpies. The
yellow-billed magpie (Pica nuttalli) is
endemic to California and has suffered
substantial population declines. It is a
species of conservation concern. We
remove the species from the
depredation order. A depredation
permit will be necessary to control the
species. We also narrow the application
of the regulation from protection of any
wildlife to protection of species
recognized by the Federal Government,
a State, or a Tribe as an endangered,
threatened, or candidate species, or a
species of special concern. We add
conditions for live trapping, which are
new to the regulation. Finally, we refine
the reporting requirement to gather data
more useful in assessing actions under
the order.
DATES: This rule is effective December 5,
2014.

To whit:
A depredation order allows the take of
specific species of migratory birds for
specific purposes without need for a
depredation permit. The depredation
order for blackbirds, cowbirds, grackles,
crows, and magpies (50 CFR 21.43)
allows take when individuals of an
included species are found ‘‘committing
or about to commit depredations upon
ornamental or shade trees, agricultural
crops, livestock, or wildlife, or when
concentrated in such numbers and
manner that they are a health hazard or
other nuisance.’’
 
Hi GeeX,
Thanks for providing the info on depredating. This is something I wasn't aware of at the time I posted back in 2012.
Back then I remember looking up a list of protected birds and Grackles were on there. I don't know every federal wildlife regulation, so I missed this one. Honestly, I'd like to someday learn much more about federal and NJ wildlife and game law just for personal edification. I purchased an animal law book a few years ago, but it sits among my bird books and hasn't been read yet. There's just not enough time with long and stressful work hours to do the things I always planned on doing.

The guy I was talking about in my original post was just a backyard birder, not a farmer.
I still find his behavior abhorrent and extreme considering the circumstances and his reasoning; that the birds
he prefers to feed weren't getting enough food. He could have looked into alternate feed and ways to feed instead of killing a bird to get the desired result. I understand your dilemma , as a farmer, is different.

Regarding your point #2: I already know about native vs. non-native species and invasive species. That's a hot topic here on BF. There was a thread months back about killing House Sparrows and viewing them as pests which turned into a very heated debate.

See post #3 by Jos in this thread. His post echoes my feelings and I think is well put.
 
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I find this absolutely disgusting how can you feed birds and kill the ones you don't like or regard has pests/invasive species.
I live in a town centre estate and my birds what visit are mostly Starlings, especially in Autumn and Winter, feral pigeons both greedy birds. I used to put my mealworms in a tray at the bottom of my birdbath and have seen between 40-50 Starlings eating the mealworms in minutes, I also feed the birds on my local patch because I get different species, pests, invasive species, call them whatever you want, some birds are on the verge of extinction due to mans habits of destroying rain forests, poachers', probably 99% of gamekeepers. To feed the birds you like and kill and brag about killing protected species definitely has issues of some kind and wants reporting to the relevant authorities. One thing I've always said about the US is they have excellent agency's concerning wildlife/animal cruelty, plainly due to watching programs like "Animal Cops, Detroit, Philadelphia, Houston and would imagine he would be brought to court, proofs there in the msg he sent you. Some people shock me beyhond belief.
A couple of years ago on a Xmas day one of the locals had bought there son a Air rifle, sat in the garden having a cigarette and bang, one of my local feral pigeons which had been sat on my shed roof had been shot in the chest, slowly dying in pain so I had to put it out of its misery has quick and painless as possible. It absolutely ruined my full Xmas. This guy got issues

Damian
 
As an aside, what about Mockingbirds? They're not on that FWS list so are presumably protected? So if someone writes a treatise advocating killing one, should they be arrested and charged with breach of bird protection legislation?
 
Guys, this is not what BirdForum is all about. Never do we advocate the merciless killing of any bird life.
 
As an aside, what about Mockingbirds? They're not on that FWS list so are presumably protected? So if someone writes a treatise advocating killing one, should they be arrested and charged with breach of bird protection legislation?

Leaving aside the issue of "killing", what Mockingbird behavior is objectionable? People are complaining about certain (undesirable) birds dominating feeders. Have you ever seen a Mockingbird at a feeder? Serious question - we have Mockingbirds by the hundreds in our neighborhood and I have never had one at my feeder (would love to though).
 
Leaving aside the issue of "killing", what Mockingbird behavior is objectionable? People are complaining about certain (undesirable) birds dominating feeders. Have you ever seen a Mockingbird at a feeder? Serious question - we have Mockingbirds by the hundreds in our neighborhood and I have never had one at my feeder (would love to though).
Nothing objectionable about them at all! But someone has written a book (very popular, I gather?) about killing one (judging by the title; I've not read it). I was wondering if this was legal or not.
 
On the subject of grey squirrels versus red, I am lucky enough to live in one of the few places in England that still hosts a decent population of red squirrels, but we are right on the forefront of the conservation effort. Red Squirrels Northern England (rsne.org.uk) does an incredible job in protecting the native red squirrels, but its methods (trapping and euthanizing the greys) are objectionable to some.

Having grown up in Cheshire, we had grey squirrels in our garden that you could feed from your hand, and they were very cute, and very welcome (for us, at least). But whenever I see a grey squirrel here, I immediately report it to RSNE in the hope that it will be.... er...dealt with.... And perhaps even more shockingly, we regularly buy grey squirrel at the local farmers' market and it is indeed delicious....! The greys are a pest around here, in that the small populations of reds are very threatened, not only by competition for food, but worse, by the squirrelpox virus, which is carried by greys (but does them no harm) whereas it kills reds. Local populations of reds took a huge nosedive 2-3 years ago because of the virus, and have been slowly increasing due to the efforts of the conservationists. I see red squirrels in various places now that have not had them for years, and have maybe 10-15 sightings a year, with only 2-3 sightings of greys locally, so I guess the efforts are having an impact.

Having said ALL that.... it's definitely not right to pick and choose which birds can use your feeders. Just put more food out when the grackles (or in my case, magpies) have had their fill and gone, for goodness sake!
 
Leaving aside the issue of "killing", what Mockingbird behavior is objectionable? People are complaining about certain (undesirable) birds dominating feeders. Have you ever seen a Mockingbird at a feeder? Serious question - we have Mockingbirds by the hundreds in our neighborhood and I have never had one at my feeder (would love to though).
Ive got lots of mockingbirds at my feeder here in nj.
 
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