Scat I.D. Is this fox? (1 Viewer)

Yelvertoft · Oct 16, 2005

Hi there,

Firstly, an apology to those who may find this subject matter to be in poor taste. Sorry if it's a bit much for a Sunday lunchtime but it is nature in the raw.

I am curious to know what has been visiting my garden for the past few weeks and leaving its "calling card". I began noticing droppings being left on my lawn now and again in late August. Since then I've had increasingly regular visits and increasingly large numbers of deposits left. The circumstances are:
Always left overnight - I've never seen what's doing this
Visits now probably 2 nights out of every three
Leaves between 1 and 4 deposits

There are two "styles", as shown below.
About 70% of the time, the scat is like the first picture below with a high seed/berry/bud content. The first picture shows a dropping that's about as big as they get, it's about 6 inches long. They are normally slightly smaller.
The remainder of the time, they are like the second picture with a much firmer texture and a high fur content. The second type of scat is typically about 4 inches long.

Some mornings I will scout the lawn and find that both types have been left in the same night. This suggests that there is more than one animal, they move in groups and have a varied diet. The high fur content style seems to be "classic" fox scat from the research I've already done, but the seed/berry stuff doesn't match fox.

There has been a noticeable reduction in bird activity in recent weeks and whatever it is had got what I suspect had been a wood pigeon from the grey feathers that were left. There have also been odd bits of fur left that were probably rabbit. Both pigeon and rabbit are very common locally.

There have been no stray dog sightings, and I'm sure if it was dog, it wouldn't be so nocturnal and I'd have seen it by now. My partner has had cats in the past and assures me it's not cat droppings. We've had muntjac deer in the garden before but it's only once every few years, not almost daily. Badgers, I'm led to believe use specific latrine areas, wheras these droppings are scattered in a wide area across my reasonably sized lawn. It's far too big for hedgehog, and not the right shape/content either. The only likely candidate I'm left with is fox. We haven't heard any fox yelping recently, but they have been heard in the past.

Any experts out there? Is it fox, or something else?

Answers on an electron to the usual address....

Regards,

Duncan.

MH68 · Oct 16, 2005

Second pic`s definitely Fox Duncan, twisted ends give the culprit away.If you`re brave enough to have a whiff of it, the strength of the scent will give an idea of how long ago it was deposited. Not sure of the first pic though, it seems too "loose" for Fox.....

Mark

London Birder · Oct 16, 2005

yep, agree with MH68, second pic is certainly Fox .... first one I have no idea about

MH68 · Oct 16, 2005

To me the first one seems like Cat, but as said I`m not 100% sure.

Mark

Yelvertoft · Oct 16, 2005

MH68 said:
Second pic`s definitely Fox Duncan, twisted ends give the culprit away.If you`re brave enough to have a whiff of it, the strength of the scent will give an idea of how long ago it was deposited. Not sure of the first pic though, it seems too "loose" for Fox.....

Mark

Thanks Mark, I'd figured the 2nd pic was almost certainly fox. Other research has informed me that fox scat smells "a thousand times worse than dog". Never having had a dog, I have no reference to work against. Both types smell pretty bad though, gagging type bad if I'm clearing up first thing in the morning.

1st pic is very "loose" but I'm assured by others who've owned cats that it certainly isn't cat. The busy road at the end of the garden keeps the cat population down, I haven't seen the one that used to hang around here for a while now. That used to pass through, but not poo in our garden. There's no new cats appeared recently. If it is cat, then it's eating wild. There's lots of seeds and small round berries in it, some chewed, some swallowed whole and still clearly identifiable as coming from plants in the garden.

The fact that both types appear during the same nights in the same basic area of the lawn suggests to me it's the same type of animal. I was thinking that it could be adult and juvenilles. As there's sometimes 4 piles, I was thinking it could be a whole fox family.

Duncan.

MH68 · Oct 16, 2005

Hi Duncan, I`ve never seen a Fox scat as loose as that 1st pic, could be something else foraging on the same food source as the Fox. Fox scats do have a strong musty smell, but aren`t as foul smelling as Dog`s, try one and see 8-P . I`ll have a study of the 1st pic and see if I can come up with any alternatives...

Mark

derekjake · Oct 16, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
Hi there,

Firstly, an apology to those who may find this subject matter to be in poor taste. Sorry if it's a bit much for a Sunday lunchtime but it is nature in the raw.

I am curious to know what has been visiting my garden for the past few weeks and leaving its "calling card". I began noticing droppings being left on my lawn now and again in late August. Since then I've had increasingly regular visits and increasingly large numbers of deposits left. The circumstances are:
Always left overnight - I've never seen what's doing this
Visits now probably 2 nights out of every three
Leaves between 1 and 4 deposits

There are two "styles", as shown below.
About 70% of the time, the scat is like the first picture below with a high seed/berry/bud content. The first picture shows a dropping that's about as big as they get, it's about 6 inches long. They are normally slightly smaller.
The remainder of the time, they are like the second picture with a much firmer texture and a high fur content. The second type of scat is typically about 4 inches long.

Some mornings I will scout the lawn and find that both types have been left in the same night. This suggests that there is more than one animal, they move in groups and have a varied diet. The high fur content style seems to be "classic" fox scat from the research I've already done, but the seed/berry stuff doesn't match fox.

There has been a noticeable reduction in bird activity in recent weeks and whatever it is had got what I suspect had been a wood pigeon from the grey feathers that were left. There have also been odd bits of fur left that were probably rabbit. Both pigeon and rabbit are very common locally.

There have been no stray dog sightings, and I'm sure if it was dog, it wouldn't be so nocturnal and I'd have seen it by now. My partner has had cats in the past and assures me it's not cat droppings. We've had muntjac deer in the garden before but it's only once every few years, not almost daily. Badgers, I'm led to believe use specific latrine areas, wheras these droppings are scattered in a wide area across my reasonably sized lawn. It's far too big for hedgehog, and not the right shape/content either. The only likely candidate I'm left with is fox. We haven't heard any fox yelping recently, but they have been heard in the past.

Any experts out there? Is it fox, or something else?

Answers on an electron to the usual address....

Regards,

Duncan.

HI ELVERTOFT, THE FIRST I WOULD SAY IS A YOUNG BADGER A YOUNG BADGER AS THEY DO NOT ALWAYS DIG A HOLE TO USE LIKE A ADULT WOULD, SECOND PICTURE A FOX, REGARDS DEREKJAKE.

Thelma W. · Oct 16, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
Hi there,

Firstly, an apology to those who may find this subject matter to be in poor taste. Sorry if it's a bit much for a Sunday lunchtime but it is nature in the raw.

I am curious to know what has been visiting my garden for the past few weeks and leaving its "calling card".
Regards, Duncan.

Hi, Duncan, no apology necessary! I have both badgers and foxes in my garden, and I would say the second is fox. I am not sure about badgers as so far ours have been very clean, obviously having their latrines elsewhere. Foxes are quite quiet at the moment, but if they have been visiting you will
know!! They leave a very pungent scent that gets right up your nose!! You really would know. Badgers smell musky, quite pleasant and not particularly noticeable.

Have you found any holes in the lawn, with the turf rolled back a bit? If so, it might well be badgers. To find out, if you can't stay up all night (as I did) put some peanuts and soaked raisins in a heavy dish, with a good sized rock or a couple of bricks on top. If it is tipped over and the food gone it is likely to be badgers.

From my reading on the subject the fruity ones are likely to be badger at this time of year, and the furry ones, a fox.

Please let us know if you find out. I am very curious. I have two of each visiting most nights, and there are muntjac in the area, but not seen one yet.

MH68 · Oct 16, 2005

Badger is a possibility for the first pic, but as Thelma says, if Badgers have been visiting there`d be obvious feeding signs on the lawn, similar to the pic i`ve attached below..

Mark

Yelvertoft · Oct 17, 2005

Hi Thelma and Mark,

Thanks for the replies, this question has generated a much better response than I expected.

Thelma, I did try and stay up all night watching last Saturday night. I'm sure I dozed off a couple of times but didn't see anything whilst watching. It was really very dark anyway so I couldn't see much activity even if there was something about. There was only one deposit right down the very bottom of the garden when I checked in the morning so I'm not surprised I didn't see any activity.

I searched the lawn again tonight after I got home and found the usual "type 1" with seeds and berries in it. I had read that badgers dig holes and scouted for holes in the lawn, having found a (single, empty) shallow scrape I briefly got all excited and then remembered I'd watched a squirrel digging in that spot yesterday - probably dug a crocus bulb up or some bird peanuts it had nabbed from the feeder and buried. Otherwise, there's no sign of any digging.

I searched the forum and found this thread
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=723
I have to say, the material in the photo in the thread given above does look remarkably similar. It is always sitting on the surface though, never in a scrape, and never in the same spot.

I think everyone agrees the "type 2" is fox. Any cat or dog owners out there feel strongly enough to say that the "type 1" is cat or dog? As I said before, I think I'd have seen the animal if it was cat or dog and not sure it would be so exclusively nocturnal. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

Regards,

Duncan.

Thelma W. · Oct 17, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
Hi Thelma and Mark,
Thelma, I did try and stay up all night watching last Saturday night. I'm sure I dozed off a couple of times but didn't see anything whilst watching. It was really very dark anyway so I couldn't see much activity even if there was something about. I searched the lawn again tonight after I got home and found the usual "type 1" with seeds and berries in it. Duncan.

I think the suggestion that it might be a young badger is possible. At this time of year they eat blackberries and elderberries, windfalls etc. so the "fruity deposit" would fit. Our badgers didn't start digging for quite a while after their first visits, initially coming for bird food left overs, which suggested they were very hungry. It was during a very long dry spell, when badger populations can crash quite dramatically, which is why we started feeding.

Have you a local badger group? They might be able to tell you if there are badgers around your area.

I'm afraid we have recently invested in a Night Vision Scope, and the things we now see are amazing! Worth every penny. Do you know anyone who has one that you could borrow? It might solve your puzzle without too much strain :-O

I will have a look at that thread later. Good luck, Keep us posted.

derekjake · Oct 17, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
Hi Thelma and Mark,

Thanks for the replies, this question has generated a much better response than I expected.

Thelma, I did try and stay up all night watching last Saturday night. I'm sure I dozed off a couple of times but didn't see anything whilst watching. It was really very dark anyway so I couldn't see much activity even if there was something about. There was only one deposit right down the very bottom of the garden when I checked in the morning so I'm not surprised I didn't see any activity.

I searched the lawn again tonight after I got home and found the usual "type 1" with seeds and berries in it. I had read that badgers dig holes and scouted for holes in the lawn, having found a (single, empty) shallow scrape I briefly got all excited and then remembered I'd watched a squirrel digging in that spot yesterday - probably dug a crocus bulb up or some bird peanuts it had nabbed from the feeder and buried. Otherwise, there's no sign of any digging.

I searched the forum and found this thread
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=723
I have to say, the material in the photo in the thread given above does look remarkably similar. It is always sitting on the surface though, never in a scrape, and never in the same spot.

I think everyone agrees the "type 2" is fox. Any cat or dog owners out there feel strongly enough to say that the "type 1" is cat or dog? As I said before, I think I'd have seen the animal if it was cat or dog and not sure it would be so exclusively nocturnal. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

Regards,

Duncan.

your welcome , regards derekjake

Yelvertoft · Oct 18, 2005

The plop, sorry, plot, thickens

derekjake said:
your welcome , regards derekjake

Thanks derekjake, I'm thinking more and more that "type 1" is juvenille badger if the young don't make latrine scrapes.

I did a quick scout around this morning before I left for work. There was another pile, but this looked different again, more like deer. I'll take a photo tonight when I get home if I find it is different again; it was difficult to tell in the early pre-dawn light. I seem to have all sorts visiting the garden at the moment.

Later edit Having looked in better light tonight, it was just two piles of common or garden "type 1".

I'm going to borrow a camcorder with IR capability and leave it pointing/recording the most popular spot overnight. I may even invest in a 1st generation NV scope after reading salty's thread in the scopes sub-forum.

I'll let you know what I find.

Duncan

P.S. Thelma, your post contained the word "windfall", that made a light come on! There's plenty of apple and pear trees nearby. I had been trying to figure out what some of the chunks in the poo were (the things you do, eh?). Apple would fit the bill. Would have thought apple/pear would have been digested more, if that's what it is.

Thelma W. · Oct 18, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
I'm going to borrow a camcorder with IR capability and leave it pointing/recording the most popular spot overnight. I may even invest in a 1st generation NV scope after reading salty's thread in the scopes sub-forum.

P.S. Thelma, your post contained the word "windfall", that made a light come on! There's plenty of apple and pear trees nearby. I had been trying to figure out what some of the chunks in the poo were (the things you do, eh?). Apple would fit the bill. Would have thought apple/pear would have been digested more, if that's what it is.

Mine's a first generation scope too and I am very pleased with it. It takes all the strain and uncertainty out of looking, which is tiring (and I can see idiots on the railway line at night now too!!). Using the infra red I would have recognised them, if I had known them.

We have had a lot of rough weather and there are many early windfalls that are not really ripe, and a little fella wouldn't know they might give him tummy ache would he? :eat: I can vouch for the fact that badgers love apples and pears and a lot of other things too. Ours get a very varied diet!! I wonder what your neighbours think :-O

adehinch · Oct 20, 2005

hi i have had a family of, at the start 3 cubs and 2 adult foxes daily visiting my garden now since april. now i am down to 1 adult and 2 full grown cubs. i feed them a mixture of peanuts , raisens, apple, cheap dried cat food, cheap dog biscuits and any left over cat food , also bread and every other day a tin of cheapest dog/cat meat. i now clear up more fox poo than dog or cat poo from our garden. our adult fox normally will leave evidence consistant with pic 2 but our cubs still have a looser scat more consistant with pic 1. i rarely have to clear any uneaten seeds from under the bird feeders as the cubs polish these off too (seen in the scats) if i am late up the magpies will pick over these scats with great delight! unfortunately i do not have any badgers but being a active member of 2 local badger groups i wouldn't say that pic 1 was badger especially if it smells bad. badgers poo smells musky and sweet not unpleasant at all...... right .... now of for my tea! yum yum worked up an appertite now! lol

Yelvertoft · Oct 21, 2005

adehinch said:
...our adult fox normally will leave evidence consistant with pic 2 but our cubs still have a looser scat more consistant with pic 1. i rarely have to clear any uneaten seeds from under the bird feeders as the cubs polish these off too (seen in the scats) if i am late up the magpies will pick over these scats with great delight! unfortunately i do not have any badgers but being a active member of 2 local badger groups i wouldn't say that pic 1 was badger especially if it smells bad. badgers poo smells musky and sweet not unpleasant at all...... right .... now of for my tea! yum yum worked up an appertite now! lol

Hi there,

Thanks for this feedback. The info on the lack of seed scatter under the bird feeders is consistent with my experience. I had assumed that the seeds were being cleared up by whatever it is that's visiting. We have lots of magpies but I can't say that I've seen them picking at the droppings of either types 1 or 2. Wouldn't say that the type 1 smells really bad (unlike type 2), but it certainly isn't "musky and sweet".

I set up a camcorder on Wednesday night, pointing at a tray of apples and pears that I'd put out as bait. The camcorder has an IR illuminator and night shot capability but I don't think it was sensitive enough for the distances involved. It chucked it down with lashing rain and strong winds on Wednesday night. There was no sign of anything having taken the bait on Thursday morning, it was untouched, nor was there any fresh poo on the lawn. I sat and reviewed a lot of black video footage with no sound apart from wind and rain.

There was a fresh pile of type 1 on the lawn this morning so whatever it is, it clearly had more sense than to go out on a foul night on Wednesday. In a strange kind of way I was really pleased to find it, glad that I hadn't been deserted. Haven't seen any type 2 for about a week and a half now.

I'd ordered a 1st generation night vision scope a couple of days ago and it's just turned up, so, I'll let you know if I see anything over the weekend.

Duncan.

P.S. why don't we have a "holding nose" smilie?

Thelma W. · Oct 21, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
There was a fresh pile of type 1 on the lawn this morning so whatever it is, it clearly had more sense than to go out on a foul night on Wednesday. In a strange kind of way I was really pleased to find it, glad that I hadn't been deserted. Haven't seen any type 2 for about a week and a half now.

I'd ordered a 1st generation night vision scope a couple of days ago and it's just turned up, so, I'll let you know if I see anything over the weekend.
Duncan. P.S. why don't we have a "holding nose" smilie?

Good luck with your Scope. You will be amazed at what you can see. Wednesday was appalling here too, and the wildlife seems to come out between downpours. Last night I witnessed our badger chasing the fox all round the garden, till Ferdie finally gave up and jumped the fence. badger was distinctly grumpy last night!

This afternoon the weather has been getting progressively worse, very windy and pouring with rain. Any fox or badger with any sense would stay indoors, but no doubt hunger will drag them out eventually.

Hope you get "a performance" to justify your expensive new toy

Yelvertoft · Oct 27, 2005

Bit of a "nothing happening" update

Hi to all those who've been following this thread, thought I'd provide an update even though there is very little to report.

I've now spent quite a lot of time staring into the back garden, only to not see a single thing worth reporting. I've been using the NV scope and have to say that it is quite a gadget. I've tried hooking the NV scope to both still and video cameras only to find that there really isn't enough output to register, unless I put the IR illuminator on, which kills the battery in only a few hours. If I'm using the IR illuminator I also need to have a view without windows/glass getting in the way which is both cold at this time of year and not very secure. I couldn't leave the patio door open all night with NV scope and (borrowed) camcorder sitting there. So, short of sourcing a mains powered IR floodlight, if such things exist, and leaving the camcorder running inside the locked house, I can't really see how I'm going to catch this animal on film.

There's been a reduction in the number of piles, though they have still been appearing regularly - every couple of days rather than 6 days a week seen at the peak. There's been a couple of fox deposits over the last few weeks but it's mainly been "type 1". The deposits have been showing a change in diet, being more broken up into pieces than the original picture. It's clearly identifiable as the same stuff, but not in a single piece. The seed content has gone, but then as the bird feeder activity has virtually stopped completely (coincidence?), there hasn't been the spillage from thefeeder for the visitor to eat. It has also been noted that deposits don't appear if the weather has been bad, at least, only very rarely if it's been raining.

There's been more scrapes appearing on the lawn, but these have only been very shallow, localised pockets, consistent with holes I've seen left by squirrels. They certainly haven't been as severe as the damage shown on Mark's picture in post number #9.

If this continues, I see no option but to stay up the whole night, sitting in the dark in my dining room with a NV scope stuck to my eye. It's the only way I'm going to be able to find out. I've stayed up late a couple of nights, but each time there's been no deposit the next day, it knows it's being watched and stays away.

Sorry I haven't got anything more positive to report.

Duncan.

Thelma W. · Oct 27, 2005

Yelvertoft said:
Hi to all those who've been following this thread, thought I'd provide an update even though there is very little to report.

I've now spent quite a lot of time staring into the back garden, only to not see a single thing worth reporting. I've been using the NV scope and have to say that it is quite a gadget.
It has also been noted that deposits don't appear if the weather has been bad, at least, only very rarely if it's been raining. I've stayed up late a couple of nights, but each time there's been no deposit the next day, it knows it's being watched and stays away. Sorry I haven't got anything more positive to report. Duncan.

It looks like a case of "a watched pot never boils". I would concentrate on getting a sighting rather than film. "Round red eyes" are classier than "square eyes" don't you think?

An NV scope sure is a fascinating gadget. I wonder why my neighbours have all acquired curtains or blinds suddenly? We too find the IR only works through an open window which is a pity. I suggest you put some food out in a specific and easily viewed spot and see what happens.

Don't lose too much sleep, or you will drop off at the crucial moment. Keep us posted please.

adehinch · Oct 29, 2005

if its any help our 2 fox cubs and mum usually appear after we have turned out all the lights in the house .... we then go upstairs and put the bathroom light on, it just gives enough background light (once eyes adjust) last night i was watching them when a tabby cat jumped out from our pond and chased a cub right around the garden!!! it had no fear of the 3 foxes at all.....most amusing!!!!
keep on watching!

Scat I.D. Is this fox? (1 Viewer)

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