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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

New Zeiss Victory SF !!!!!! (2 Viewers)

opticoholic said:
Hi
I want to follow-up on my lengthy report from last weekend with a more concise summary after further reflection. I would summarize my impression like this.

I wanted the 8X42 SF experience to be noticeably better than my EDG II or the Swarovision. I guess these are the 2 current "flat field" roofs that I like most. Based on only a brief first impression of 1 non-production SF sample, I cannot say I like the SF any better. There are a few adjustments still to be made that should make the final production SF feel tighter and more precise mechanically. I forgot to say that ergonomically the SF does feel great in my hands, nicely balanced and less dense than the EDG II or the SV. I like the longer open bridge design. When you first look through the SF, the super-wide field is surprising. They have obviously pushed the wideness of the field to a new level, while also adding a strong amount of field flattening. But the overall view--including the degree of flattening or the nature of the fall-off in image quality at the very outer edge of the field--seemed more "natural" in both the EDG and the SV. I think I was noticing a little bit of rolling ball in the SF, perhaps less so in the SV and not much at all in the EDG. The center field sharpness also seemed a tad better in the EDG II and SV, at least that was my gut reaction, but I'm not sure about this. So the good thing is I don't feel a strong desire to buy this expensive binocular, but I will reserve my final judgement until I can look through real production copies, and under better conditions, not blinding direct mid-day sun.

--Dave
Click to expand...

That's strange but interesting, if you are talking about the 8.5x42 SV EL?

Holger's chart shows (or at least projects) that the 8,5x SV EL should have considerably less pincushion than the 8x SF, which means that for rolling ballers, the 8.5x SV EL should show more RB.

However, Piergiovanni from biomania recently reported that out of the two sample 8.5x42 SV ELs he has, the newer one has more distortion than the earlier model, which confirms Holger's assertion that Swaro has been tweaking the distortion in subsequent production runs of the 8,5x and 10x and that the newer models including the 8x32 and 10x50 and 12x50 are less likely to show RB due to more pincushion, with the exception of 10x32 model, which could be due to its wider AFOV (a whopping 68*).

This could be the same reason why you see more RB in the 8x42 SF than the 8.5x SV EL even though the SF has more pincushion than the SV EL-- the SF has a larger AFOV and your sample 8.5x may be a newer production model?

Brock
 
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opticoholic said:
Brock,
I don't own a Swarovision 8.5X42, but the one I was using for comparison was a demo at the Swarovski table at the optics fair, so it might well have been from a very recent run.

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave,

It probably was since it was being used as a demo.

Have you tried an earlier production 8.5x42 SV EL? If so, did it show more RB?

Brock
 
This is what I got from the Zeiss Rep on Friday.

Our renewed ship date has now been moved to the beginning of the upcoming calendar year, or January 1, 2015. Again, we apologize for the inconvenience. We at Zeiss, would like to thank you for your continued support of the brand and what we stand for.”

“We at Zeiss, unfortunately announce that the official ship date of the new Victory SF binocular has been delayed. We apologize for this message, but quality is at top of our concerns when releasing the industry’s leading optical solutions. Zeiss will not release the world’s best binocular until we are 100% certain that it is operating at a 100% level. There were some minor component delays, and therefore, the product will be delayed. We apologize for any inconvenience but we are certain, when the product becomes available, it will be perfect.


Tells me they want to make a great binocular perfect before they ship them, Kudos to Zeiss!!!

Mike
 
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brocknroller said:
Have you tried an earlier production 8.5x42 SV EL? If so, did it show more RB?
Click to expand...

Brock,
Yes, I did try a very early 8.5X42 Swarovision, for a much more extended trial, but I ended up returning them. In my long report in Feb. 2010 I said, "The rolling ball effect was not an issue for me. I had to really work to even notice it." It was a long time ago. I really can't say whether the newer SV has noticeably less RB for me.

Maybe it's an understatement to say you've taken some flak for your preoccupation with rolling ball on this forum, but I agree with you that it's a very important factor in the collective of many design points, and the current trend in premium binoculars is to push the limits of what most people can tolerate (and perhaps exceed this limit for a few). I'm still forming my own opinion on RB and how important it is to me. I noticed it a little bit in the SV and SF, but sometimes I had to carefully look for it, and I'm not sure how much it would bother me over an extended time actually using these bins for birding... I think not much at all for the SV 8.5X42. And I'm still forming an opinion on the SF, but right now my enthusiasm is a bit subdued partly because I'm not sure but whether maybe Zeiss pushed the field flattening a bit too far for me for such a wide field. I wonder if the SF had the same flattening but a more typical field of view for a premium 8X42--say nearly 8* instead of nearly 8.5*--whether I would like it better.

--Dave
 
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opticoholic said:
Brock,

. I wonder if the SF had the same flattening but a more typical field of view for a premium 8X42--say nearly 8* instead of nearly 8.5*--whether I would like it better.

--Dave
Click to expand...

Dave

Could you explain what you mean by the above? I am puzzled by your suggestion of 'nearly 8* instead of 'nearly 8.5*'.

If by 8* you mean 8x magnification, SF is 8x......

Sorry if I am being a bit slow today.

Lee
 
Troubador said:
Dave

Could you explain what you mean by the above? I am puzzled by your suggestion of 'nearly 8* instead of 'nearly 8.5*'.

If by 8* you mean 8x magnification, SF is 8x......

Sorry if I am being a bit slow today.

Lee
Click to expand...

Lee, any slower and you'll be in danger of having pigeons perching on you! :eek!:

Dave is referring to Fov. The * being used as a 'degrees' symbol ........ :cat:
:t:

FWIW, I don't think that reducing the field width would be wise - the whole rationale of the SF is it's class leading Fov AND lowish weight (well a few grams lighter than the SV and EDG anyway). They do need to make sure that the distortion profile is gentle enough though NOT to show any visible mustachio effect to the naked eye when looking for it -as opposed to just looking at stuff .....


Chosun :gh:
 
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MPeoples said:
This is what I got from the Zeiss Rep on Friday.

Our renewed ship date has now been moved to the beginning of the upcoming calendar year, or January 1, 2015. Again, we apologize for the inconvenience. We at Zeiss, would like to thank you for your continued support of the brand and what we stand for.”

“We at Zeiss, unfortunately announce that the official ship date of the new Victory SF binocular has been delayed. We apologize for this message, but quality is at top of our concerns when releasing the industry’s leading optical solutions. Zeiss will not release the world’s best binocular until we are 100% certain that it is operating at a 100% level. There were some minor component delays, and therefore, the product will be delayed. We apologize for any inconvenience but we are certain, when the product becomes available, it will be perfect.


Tells me they want to make a great binocular perfect before they ship them, Kudos to Zeiss!!!

Mike
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing Mike :t:

It certainly is disappointing that this launch is no smoother than the HT's were. It's good that Zeiss is delaying launch until they are absolutely perfect - for that price they damn well better be ! I hope they come through in quantity so that we can get a hands on.

I wonder what components are affected, and more importantly, where on earth could they be possibly coming from to cause such a significant delay ?! :cat:

I hope it is just that, and not a ruse for some design problem. Hopefully they can improve the brightness and CA handling, and reduce the mustachio effect. They had better ensure the sharpness is cutting edge too (without any x54mm HT style hiccups) .... :eek!:

After all, they have again trotted out the "world's best binocular" stuff ..... sheesh! |^|

I sure would like to be a fly on the wall when the court case to test that one hits the fans !! :brains:


Chosun :gh:
 
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Chosun Juan said:
Lee, any slower and you'll be in danger of having pigeons perching on you! :eek!:

Dave is referring to Fov. The * being used as a 'degrees' symbol ........ :cat:
:t:

FWIW, I don't think that reducing the field width would be wise - the whole rationale of the SF is it's class leading Fov AND lowish weight (well a few grams lighter than the SV and EDG anyway). They do need to make sure that the distortion profile is gentle enough though NOT to show any visible mustachio effect to the naked eye when looking for it -as opposed to just looking at stuff .....

Chosun :gh:
Click to expand...


Thanks CJ, the coincidence of the 8* and 8.5* to the magnifications of the SF and EL SV got me shorts in a twist.

Now, about these chuffin' pigeons....

Lee
 
MPeoples said:
We apologize for any inconvenience but we are certain, when the product becomes available, it will be perfect.


Tells me they want to make a great binocular perfect before they ship them, Kudos to Zeiss!!!

Mike
Click to expand...

Please. Standard virtually meaningless hyperbolic public relations gobbldey gook on why a date was missed.
 
dwever said:
Please. Standard virtually meaningless hyperbolic public relations gobbldey gook on why a date was missed.
Click to expand...

Dwever you could be right, and the language does put your teeth on edge doesn't it, but don't forget you could be wrong too.

Here is a little story.

When my brother in law saw a certain branded product being advertised by a celebrity he told me that of course the celebrity would say the product was wonderful because he had been paid and probably given one of these products.

So I asked him, what if the product is a good one? Why would you deny yourself having a perfectly good product just because a celebrity says it is a perfectly good product?

He didn't have an answer because I also pointed out that he uses Zeiss FL bins which were endorsed by celebrity Simon King (great guy) and if he had been ruled by this idea never to follow a celebrity endorsement he would never have bought the FLs.

Where does this apply to your disdain for the Zeiss apology for the delay and your view that it is meaningless hype?

Just because some such statements are meaningless hype it doesn't mean they all are.

Lee
 
What Zeiss seems to have done with the SF is the same thing it did with with the HT. It makes a handful of prototypes and shows them to a limited number of amateur and professional users to get their feedback, and if they find any complaints that need be addressed, they delay the release date while they tweak the final prototype that will be used for the production models.

However, if this is their SOP, then you'd think they'd know by now NOT to announce a release date since it would always be subject to change, depending on the feedback they get from the users. I remember for the HT, Zeiss actually had a clock on their Website counting off how many days it was late!

Doesn't seem to be a good marketing strategy to me, but then again, perhaps it is, because it gets people talking about the SF, just as we are on BF, and this builds interest and anticipation.

As to dwever's comment, that's how marketing people speak. I'm not sure if they learn this language in college or if when you become a marketing person, you are handed a standard "spin manual," but public relations is about how to make the best of a bad situation.

As to the delay itself, I don't think that anyone is going to be harmed by holding on to their $2,600 for a few more months and earning a bit of interest on the money while they wait. It's better for Zeiss and its customers for the design to be as bug-free as possible before being put into production since that saves Zeiss money from having to deal with repairs or replacements on defective models and it saves customers from having to return them.

As the carpenter's mantra goes: Measure twice, and cut once.

Brock
 
Brock:

I think you have summed things up nicely. Whet the appetite of those looking for a new
optic, as mentioned above it happens with scopes, etc.

Then announce a date that they will be available, and knowing full well, that they will not be .

Those thinking about a new model, then stop and wait, and think, I should check out that new model.

Just a marketing ploy, and Zeiss seems to be not alone.

I agree, wait, don't be the first in line. Be patient, the first ones may have bugs.

Jerry
 
brocknroller said:
...However, if this is their SOP, then you'd think they'd know by now NOT to announce a release date since it would always be subject to change, depending on the feedback they get from the users...
Click to expand...

I'm not in marketing and I've forgotten the reason why (it has been discussed in photography fora), but actually, very early product release announcements, pre-release announcements, and announcements of impending announcements of pre-release announcements _have_ become SOP in the world of cameras and camera lenses. These announcements are done so early that the expected release dates are very often revised. I'm so used to it, these days I am actually surprised when something is released on time. I doubt the delays very often have anything to do with customer feedback. More likely it is about solving problems of efficient production, or sometimes patent issues. Like how long have we been waiting for the modular Nikon Monarch Fieldscopes now? Over a year I think. They used to be listed with prices on the B&H website, but now it just says "no longer available." Meanwhile, supplies of all of Nikon's other (previous, discontinued) top-end scopes have dried up, so they aren't selling anything! I doubt that is part of the marketing strategy!

--AP
 
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Alexis,

I think what you have said is closer to the mark than what Brock has postulated, although there are elements of truth to that too, to a lesser degree.

Most businesses today whether they be construction, consumer products, etc, are a finely tuned balancing act between "selling" the dream and delivering the expectations ...... 3:)

While some degree of Marketing buzz is deliberate .... too much continual delay risks giving competitors too much of a look-see and opportunity timewise to respond. It also risks disappointing and alienating customers.

Ramping up production is something that is always progressing in the background. This seems to me to be more of a quality issue with component specification and /or delivered tolerances. When you are sourcing cheap components from all around the world, there are often teething problems and delays.

Of course, it may just be an opportune smokescreen for a bit of a redesign and a rethink too.

They're hardly going to release the specific details, hence - das spiegel ! ..... :brains: :-O


Chosun :gh:
 
Judging by the daily activity in this thread, I would say that the Zeiss marketing team is more than likely very happy. How many of you have a pair on order ?
 
Hermann said:
Well ... When I bought my Zeiss 10x40 BGA in 1980, I thought it was a lifetime investment. And then I bought the Leica Trinovid 8x32 BA in the 1990s. My next lifetime investment was my Zeiss Victory 10x40. And then it was a Nikon 10x40 SE. Also a lifetime investment.

After that I said to myself that I'd wait with my next lifetime investment until there's some *real* progress. And a pair where everything was just right. Alright, I bought a few bins here and there, but nothing *really* expensive.

But looking at the Victory SF, that may well be my next lifetime investment.

Hermann
Click to expand...

Your are right!

My lifetime pair of binoculars once was the 7x42 BGAT, later I bought a Leica BN 10x42 but sold it. My most recent acquisition was a Meopta 10x42HD.

But now I'd like to try a 8x pair of binoculars. And guess to what my thoughts are narrowed now after seeing this?!?
 
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