Windermere Canada geese cull to go ahead (1 Viewer)

Kits · Mar 9, 2012

Article here.

A cull of 200 Canada geese is to go ahead in the Lake District, despite more than 2,500 people signing a petition against the move.

Rangers said up to 1,000 of the birds had been causing environmental problems on Windermere and said other control measures had failed.

About 2,600 people signed a petition urging The Windermere Geese Management Group (WGMG) to reconsider.

However, it has announced it is to go ahead with the cull as planned.

Neil Ryding, who organised the petition, said he believed wildlife was a large draw for visitors to the Lake District and said the group should see that "going to shoot these birds is just wrong".

The group said the geese have a "serious negative impact" on the economy and the environment, adding to pollution within Windermere and the surrounding land.

The comment I have highlighted is the one which worries me the most.

Twite · Mar 9, 2012

Kits said:
The group said the geese have a "serious negative impact" on the economy and the environment, adding to pollution within Windermere and the surrounding land.[/I]

The comment I have highlighted is the one which worries me the most.

Really? While placing less emphasis on the rest of the statement. Maybe you could adopt them, they're lovely clean, quiet, placid creatures, you won't even notice them.

Kits · Mar 9, 2012

I find it rather sad that economy is mentioned in killing birds. I am well aware of what Canada Geese are like. Maybe it would be a good idea to kill the birds in gardens as they poop on windows and cars ...

Mono · Mar 9, 2012

Nice balanced article in our local paper!

This has to be the best comment "Fewer Canada Geese AND fewer animal rights activists visiting! Win win!"

Adam W · Mar 9, 2012

A big fuss over nothing really, Canada Geese are culled year round the length and breadth of the country totalling an awful lot more than 200 birds I should think. This cull isnt really anything that isnt already happening anyway.

Irish Kite · Mar 9, 2012

Adam W said:
A big fuss over nothing really, Canada Geese are culled year round the length and breadth of the country totalling an awful lot more than 200 birds I should think. This cull isnt really anything that isnt already happening anyway.

I'd agree with that - in my book this species is at the same level as mink, ruddy duck etc.

Cheshire Birder · Mar 9, 2012

Even with a cull of 200 birds, it probably won't make much difference to the local population. By the end of the breeding season they will have numbers back to pre-cull levels.

CB

christineredgate · Mar 9, 2012

Mono said:
Nice balanced article in our local paper!

This has to be the best comment "Fewer Canada Geese AND fewer animal rights activists visiting! Win win!"

"Balanced"!!!!!!!

fellsman · Mar 9, 2012

Adam W said:
A big fuss over nothing really, Canada Geese are culled year round the length and breadth of the country totalling an awful lot more than 200 birds I should think. This cull isnt really anything that isnt already happening anyway.

local birders will know that numbers of feral geese in the lake district have increased considerably since the 1960's not only canada geese but also greylags. Local tenant farmers of the national trust probably don't have shooting rights and so there has been no control of numbers on the lakes.
Numbers have also built up on tarns on forestry commision land and around reservoir catchments owned by united utilities .

The institute for freshwater ecology at ferry house Windermere has data regarding the water quality of the lakes for a considerable number of years so any evidence of nutrient enrichment and pollution in the lakes will have been detected.The wildfowl of windermere lake have been surveyed monthly for a considerable number of years and probably was started in the 1920's so there is a good dataset of numbers and species using the lake.

A few pairs were recorded at Rydal in the 1890's and about 60 geese are said to have been released in 1957 .

A race of canada goose is named after a past resident of the lake district Sir John Richardson who was buried at Grasmere in 1865 he had richardsons goose and richardsons skua named after him, he was a artic explorer who explored the north west pasage along with Franklin.

Stephen Dunstan · Mar 9, 2012

Adam W said:
A big fuss over nothing really, Canada Geese are culled year round the length and breadth of the country totalling an awful lot more than 200 birds I should think. This cull isnt really anything that isnt already happening anyway.

I agree to some extent. However this is Lake Windermere, it's possibly the biggest piece of freshwater in England so the number of geese quoted hardly sounds like a big enough problem to justify a cull.

I can think of individual fields round here that hold more geese annually. This is a lake which from memory is 12 or 13 miles long.

Stephen

Adam W · Mar 10, 2012

Stephen Dunstan said:
I agree to some extent. However this is Lake Windermere, it's possibly the biggest piece of freshwater in England so the number of geese quoted hardly sounds like a big enough problem to justify a cull.

I can think of individual fields round here that hold more geese annually. This is a lake which from memory is 12 or 13 miles long.

Stephen

Yes I would agree that I'm not convinced that cull is actually going to achieve much and 1000 birds doesnt sound a huge number but I guess part of the problem is the fact that those 1000 birds are permanantly there(as apposed to say migrant Grey Geese) and perhaps most likely confined to the areas where most of the people usually are so there's more of a potential conflict.

captaincarot · Mar 10, 2012

next step for the authority, will be shooting tourists dogs for crapping on the pavement too

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

Stephen Dunstan said:
I agree to some extent. However this is Lake Windermere, it's possibly the biggest piece of freshwater in England so the number of geese quoted hardly sounds like a big enough problem to justify a cull.

I can think of individual fields round here that hold more geese annually. This is a lake which from memory is 12 or 13 miles long.

Stephen

But the geese probably do not use the whole 12-13 miles, they'll spend all of their time in one small area. Windermere has layers within the water column that do not readily mix, so pollutants tend to hang around.

Geese are big polluters of lakes when they are concentrated in one area, day in, day out, year on year (so we're talking resident feral geese, not migrant geese). They eat grass on land and transfer the nutrients (Phosphorous, Nitrogen) into the water through their droppings, which then causes eutrophication or hyper-eutrophication (algal blooms, pea-soup effects). This is especially a big problem for upland lakes that are naturally very low in nutrients, as they have an delicate ecology to match. Increasing the nutrients means that you increase the algae, decrease the light and deplete the oxygen.

This is a well-studied effect, particularly with reference to feral geese on lakes and gulls on reservoirs. The former solution to canada goose concentrations was to move them somewhere new, but that just meant that you had new centres of population growth.

Sadly, for the geese at least, some form of culling is the only solution if we want to preserve the ecology of upland and lowland lakes.

Stephen Dunstan · Mar 10, 2012

AlfArbuthnot said:
But the geese probably do not use the whole 12-13 miles, they'll spend all of their time in one small area. Windermere has layers within the water column that do not readily mix, so pollutants tend to hang around.

Geese are big polluters of lakes when they are concentrated in one area, day in, day out, year on year (so we're talking resident feral geese, not migrant geese). They eat grass on land and transfer the nutrients (Phosphorous, Nitrogen) into the water through their droppings, which then causes eutrophication or hyper-eutrophication (algal blooms, pea-soup effects). This is especially a big problem for upland lakes that are naturally very low in nutrients, as they have an delicate ecology to match. Increasing the nutrients means that you increase the algae, decrease the light and deplete the oxygen.

This is a well-studied effect, particularly with reference to feral geese on lakes and gulls on reservoirs. The former solution to canada goose concentrations was to move them somewhere new, but that just meant that you had new centres of population growth.

Sadly, for the geese at least, some form of culling is the only solution if we want to preserve the ecology of upland and lowland lakes.

If they spend all their time in one small area I would have thought that was ideal for more humane control measures such as removing / pricking eggs.

I don't know the precise details of where the birds linger on Windermere, but many of those who do think this cull is excessive.

Stephen

ChrisKten · Mar 10, 2012

I don't like anything being killed, but I especially don't like anything being killed unnecessarily. Of course, that's just the child in me, not the practical adult. OTOH, the "child in me" is what fuels my fascination with Wildlife; so I'm hopeful that I won't get too much like an adult|=)|

One serious question: Has the criteria used to justify "Culls" (BTW, that word didn't used to have the meaning that it does today) changed? Is it now easier to justify a Cull, or are we just hearing about them more than in the past?

It seems that everything from Feral Pigeons to Badgers are being culled, and it seems like a never ending sequence. I've no idea how many culls are either planned or active, but I bet it's a lot more than most people think it is.

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

Stephen Dunstan said:
If they spend all their time in one small area I would have thought that was ideal for more humane control measures such as removing / pricking eggs.

I don't know the precise details of where the birds linger on Windermere, but many of those who do think this cull is excessive.

Stephen

That does not reduce the population (geese can live for 20 years), and has already been tried (according to the article).

Many people think lots of reasonable things are excessive, such as culling Ruddy Ducks or Grey Squirrels, but the people whose job it is to think about these things (such as the National Park Rangers) tend to be in the best position to know. Quite why Brian May seems to think his opinion should count for something is beyond me...

People wouldn't care so much if this was rats, but just because the 'problem' has feathers does not make the basic situation any different from a rat infestation. I wonder how many of those protesting have ever used a mousetrap...

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

ChrisKten said:
One serious question: Has the criteria used to justify "Culls" (BTW, that word didn't used to have the meaning that it does today) changed? Is it now easier to justify a Cull, or are we just hearing about them more than in the past?

People are probably just more sentimental and, dare I say it, more detached from how wildlife/countryside management actually works. Also, the 24 hr media is more desperate for stories of local conflict, so every little grumble gets broadcast and grows into a 'protest'. I also feel that people are generally more emboldened to think that their personal opinion of everything matters, and is equal to anybody else's, despite their having no obvious expertise on the issue (Brian May springs to mind here!). 'People power' can very easily slip into mob rule, where those with expert knowledge are drowned out by the voices of those who don't understand the issue but are led by self-righteous sentimentality.

Culling is much less frequent than it was. 40 years ago whole communities turned out to 'cull' the local rooks or rabbits. It was part of normal life. Each village had Sparrow Clubs, where small boys were encouraged to kill as many sparrows as they could. Badgers were gassed routinely.

But now the pendulum has swung the other way, where many people think that it's wrong to kill any wild animal, no matter what the argument in favour of it. But not all opinions deserve to be listened to, no matter how many people hold them. Unforunately, there is no democracy of knowledge - on any one topic, only a small number of people know what they're talking about, be it brain surgery, running an economy, or what to do about geese.

In cases like this, I'm happy to take the word of the Rangers on Windermere, rather than TV birdwatcher from Primrose Hill (Oddie), or a rock Guitarist from the Home Counties (May).

captaincarot · Mar 10, 2012

AlfArbuthnot said:
Quite why Brian May seems to think his opinion should count for something is beyond me...

.

possibly because worldwide a couple of billion people actually know who he is, where as even we have never heard of you

Adam W · Mar 10, 2012

captaincarot said:
next step for the authority, will be shooting tourists dogs for crapping on the pavement too

Yes they probably would if 1000 tourists released their non native dogs into the wild and rightly so.

Adam W · Mar 10, 2012

captaincarot said:
possibly because worldwide a couple of billion people actually know who he is, where as even we have never heard of you

Thats got no relavance as to wether his opinion is right though has it. We all know who Hitler is but that hardly means his opinions should be listened too does it?

Windermere Canada geese cull to go ahead (1 Viewer)

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