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Gull help please (1 Viewer)

Hi Dave & Jason

Thanks for your comments regarding this bird today. I will have to look for it again over the weekend and try an get a look at the open wing if possible.

Regards
Tristan
 
Hi Dave,
I would tend to agree with you in many respects.The bird does look a bit more like a Herring Gull in some respects in the pics,but Tristan says that it had yellowish tones to the legs,darkish mantle and seemed to have a more attenuated rear than nearby argenteus,which are all pro-Yellow-legged features.Also,as he stated,he has lots of experience of 'typical' Herring Gulls(argenteus/argentatus),so I would take his word for it being somewhat different to these.
On the other hand,I too would hesitate to call such a bird as an unequivocal michahellis Yellow-legged(or michahellis Herring,as per the British(and Irish) lists!),at least not until good images of the spread wing were available.Hybrid Herring x Lesser Black-backed could be ruled out(or in!) then.
Harry
 
Fair points lately here by most people...

I think Harry's is as good a summary as we're gunna get here.

Maybe, the best course of action here is for Tristan & myself to submit records to the relevant County recorder & await their learned response.


Yes, i am talking about Both the gull & the Rudshelduck......... ;)

(Stephen, this is pure co-incidence but we once had a dog called Benji, it was a scruffy mongrel thing & it met its maker while i was reversing the tractor.
Its strange but i havnt thought of him for years now, poor dog, shite name an arl.)

Regards Ste.
 
Wow - just because I said the king has got no clothes on I get another heap of abuse - poor dog!!!! I will remain uninterested in hybrid gulls despite this vile tirade.
 
seems like this has all stemmed from trying to ID something from a photo that can't be ID'ed from a photo.
I've lost count of the number of pictures that have shown false colours over the years and there seems to be areal craze today for id from pictures

Dave has summed it up fine in post 59 - i too suspect michahellis

Field notes and a sketch would be more use and remove endless unresolvable discussion
 
Hi Tim,
Tim Allwood said:
seems like this has all stemmed from trying to ID something from a photo that can't be ID'ed from a photo.
I've lost count of the number of pictures that have shown false colours over the years and there seems to be areal craze today for id from pictures

Dave has summed it up fine in post 59 - i too suspect michahellis

Field notes and a sketch would be more use and remove endless unresolvable discussion
I have long been an advocate of taking field notes,and believe that a combination of notes and pics/footage(where available) is the best way to document a scarce/rare bird,as sometimes the camera does lie....
This is not to deny the usefulness of quality images(or even passable ones in many cases),as things such as the pattern of the spread wing of a large gull can be 'frozen' in time,allowing fine detail to be made out,but there is a danger of detail being missed out that may have been noticed in the field but not captured in any pics.
Harry
 
Agree with Harry. If you take notes and especially attempt a sketch (no matter how crap) you have to look at every cm of a bird so that your description and sketch is complete. Even if your sketch is totally unrecognisable to what you have seen, it has still forced you scrutinise a bird in a much closer manner.
 
well said u 2

2-3 days has been spent discussing what people 'think they can see' in a photo not the bird as was seen in the field!

a shot of the wingtips though or description of same from field would indeed clinch it Harry!
 
In the old days the guidance was along the lines of 'a photo, however poor quality is always extremely helpful'. And it still is. If you take field notes and don't take pictures when you have an opportunity to you can often live to regret it. The only answer whenever possible is to get both, surely.

The Cumbrian records panel may well just say the Ruddy Shelduck is of unknown origin, it seems to be the way things are going with wildfowl.

Nice one Stevie. ;)

Stephen.
 
Another thought - if people don't want to try and identify a bird from a photograph that is their perogative. But everyone other than Tristan wasn't there, so what is the significance of the fact that the discussion is based on photos and has lasted a few days. That makes it no different to hundreds of other threads on these pages, or am I missing something?
 
Hi Stephen,
The difference here,I think,is that the bird in question cannot be identified conclusively based SOLELY on the photographs obtained.Sure,one can make a stab at it,but the main alternative ID( Herring x Lesser Black-backed) can only really be ruled out by recourse to the pattern of the spread wing,which is not visible here....
Harry
 
spot on H.

(books here Stephen....cheque in post mate - cheers!)


I think the point is that the 'poor' photo appears to contradict what was seen in the field by two people (yellow legs) and now we're all trying to id it off the photo......
 
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Fair points Tim and Harry, but until you post your pics you don't necessarily know that they are going to be unidentifiable! Even if a bird is unidentifiable from the pics there can still be benefits, e.g. alerting other BF members in the area who might be sufficiently interested to go and have a look for themselves. You never know - they might even take field notes!
 
Stephen
I'll be sending photocopies of my field notes & sketch's to the Cumbria recorder with a SAE .

I'll also be going back to that location (not for any gull !) but for the resplendence of the first few hours of a new day......

The beast have not yet stirred, calves lying close to their mothers, backs steaming.
A distant Tawny calling, says goodnight as the morning begins outside his ivy-clad Ash.
Along the lane, an ashen pair of wings lift up out of the bank-side, this ghostly assassin has yet to complete his nightshift, & floats off in silence, dissolving into the mist.
The first sharp tones from the sentinal of the marsh pierce the air of the saltmarsh & remind the day to begin.
The creatures of the darkness are away now, the vixen steals off along the Hawthorn lines.
As the tide ebbs the streamlined fisherman heads out over the sand-bar & slinks into the water to push out over the merging mix of waters & mud.
Shades are lighter by the moment as the dawn arrives, the huddled waders hop & stretch, their calling intensifies.
Then everyone flies everywhere, the flocks take to the sky!
In unision, the tight groups of wings audibly tearing through the air.
The master of the sky with navy cape & black moustache, graces the estuary but has rudely awakened its morning solitude.
A chink in the cool greyness of cloud allows down a shaft of warming light & allows..............
a SEAGULL to read its map, its lost you see!
Duck orange' is sat close by.............
"you know how to get to the Med?"
"Nein."

& they ALL lived Happily ever after....or did they....
The END.

Steve.
 
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StevieEvans said:
Stephen
I'll be sending photocopies of my field notes & sketch's to the Cumbria recorder with a SAE .

I'll also be going back to that location (not for any gull !) but for the resplendence of the first few hours of a new day......

The beast have not yet stirred, calves lying close to their mothers, backs steaming.
A distant Tawny calling, says goodnight as the morning begins outside his ivy-clad Ash.
Along the lane, an ashen pair of wings lift up out of the bank-side, this ghostly assassin has yet to complete his nightshift, & floats off in silence, dissolving into the mist.
The first sharp tones from the sentinal of the marsh pierce the air of the saltmarsh & remind the day to begin.
The creatures of the darkness are away now, the vixen steals off along the Hawthorn lines.
As the tide ebbs the streamlined fisherman heads out over the sand-bar & slinks into the water to push out over the merging mix of waters & mud.
Shades are lighter by the moment as the dawn arrives, the huddled waders hop & stretch, their calling intensifies.
Then everyone flies everywhere, the flocks take to the sky!
In unision, the tight groups of wings audibly tearing through the air.
The master of the sky with navy cape & black moustache, graces the estuary but has rudely awakened its morning solitude.
A chink in the cool greyness of cloud allows down a shaft of warming light & allows..............
a SEAGULL to read its map, its lost you see!
Duck orange' is sat close by.............
"you know how to get to the Med?"
"Nein."

& they ALL lived Happily ever after....or did they....
The END.

Steve.

Brilliant Steve. If other people don't see the point of this thread that's up to them, it was all worth it for me for that!

Stephen.
 
Stephen Dunstan said:
Brilliant Steve. If other people don't see the point of this thread that's up to them, it was all worth it for me for that!

Stephen.

I am amazed that we had a page or so of vitriolic exchanges. My view that from the images we had herring gull and that was just my opinion but it seems some other people were determined to "have their way". Should it not be that we are as helpful as possible and leave it at that? Discuss the merits and shortcomings of an idea sure enough but is it really necessary to be proved right. I have noticed this on a couple of ID threads and I hope this is not a case of trying to rubbish someone else's ID skills because that would be nothing short of childish and totally unhelpful to the person asking. Truce?
 
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