Canon 450D + Skywatcher 80ED (1 Viewer)

Hi there

I've decided to jump on the scope bandwagon, mainly due to frustration from lack of FL reach.

I currently use just 1 DSLR body, the Canon 450D, and my birding lens is the Sigma 150-500. Its still not long enough for me, but going for big reach DSLR lenses , as i guess you all know already, is pretty expensive.

After some reading here, i've been very impressed with the hard work, testing, reviews and general advice and help given out by the gurus in this forum by the likes of Paul and friends.

I have my eye on purchasing an older model ( gold ) Skywatcher 80ED to mount to my 450D. Trouble is, like a lot of people on the bottom rung of the D/scope ladder, i havent a clue what i'm doing.

I love the Focus confirm of my DSLR ( a must for me as my MF is terrible due to poor eyesight ) so i even bought Focus Confirm chip EOS adapters for some of my old M42 mount lenses. The Focus confirm works fine on these old lenses ..well upto about f5.6 anyways. You can actually fool the camera into Focus confirm when using smaller apertures by taping the the correct 3 pins, but i havent done this myself.

Anyways - the 80ED kit i'm looking at has the following included, according to the shop

Skywatcher Evostar 80ED-Pro OTA refractor

No mount with this package
Evostar ED80 Pro tube assembly
80mm ED Fluorite objective
5mm (120x) and 20mm (30x) multicoated eyepieces
2" Star Diagnol
9x50 finderscope
Dual fit 1.25"/2" Crayford focuser (backlash free)
Tube rings with mounting plate
A camera thread is included

Apart from a teleconverter, Is there anything missing that i need ? How does everything mount together? There's so many options that i've read here, that i got confused about it all.

Fit a lens on the camera or no lens ? ( if yes, would my 50mm f1.8 EBC Fujinon M42 mount be any use )

I see T rings are needed ( what are they ? ) but also read in another thread that T rings aren't necessary , but why ?
http://www.scopesnskies.com/prod/as...amera-adaptor/AC696-2inch to camera/DSLR.html

I've seen photos of birds in flight using D/scoping and is this harder than using a regular DSLR/ Lens set up ?

I have a Uni-loc tripod at the moment - System 1700 with a Kood Ball head, but i think id prefer a simple but decent 2 way Pan + Tilt - does that make sense ?

Is there's any other advice / help you might think to give, i'm willing to listen to all, as this is how i managed to get into DSLR togging. If anyone's interested in some pics i have, here's the link. Most taken with 450d + 150-500 , some with previous gear ( pentax K10D + Tamron 70-350 )

Not exceptional, but good enough for me :t:

http://photo-sharing.winsoftmagic.com/1/5bysjpbd.htm

Hello.
It is hard to decide if the SW ED 80/600 will perform better than Sigma 150-500 due to the convenience of this lense (small, zoom, AF/MF). It is a difficult choice for me to decide to buy an telescope at this focal length (which is close to the Simga) if I already have the Sigma. I guess that the telescope is sharper at 600mm than Sigma at 500mm.

Regarding the SW, I think is mandatory a T ring with an adapter for canon mount for prime focus. This fits in the focuser on one side and on the camera mount o the other side. This is the most convenient mounting option for an DSLR and telescope. It is not expensive, it will eliminate any lense between the telescope and the sensor. This scenario will give you a focal length equal to the focal length of the scope (600mm).

In adition you will have the oportunity to use the telescope as an astronomical tool, which is a plus for the SW vs. Sigma.

Also for more magnification you can use it with a simple P&S camera (using eypiece projection = shot with the P&S throught the eypiece). The quality will not be as much as the prime focus method but will give you more magnification with less weight (P&S < DSLR). But you must add an adapter for mounting the P&S infront of the eyepiece or hold the camera manually...not quite good.

It is mandatory a good tripod. While choosing an tripod I found out that the ball head is useless....the telescope falls left/right while the ball was released and was very dificult to stabilise it. I also find out that the re must be a (very) solid one (holding at least 8-10kg according to the specifications). Plus must be high enough (1.6 - 1.8 m) for the moment when the telescope is pointing up (and the focuser will be down). So another (big) money.
Good luck.

Thanks for your reply Valy - what is an SW ?

So from what you say, if i dont use a DSLR lens mounted first on the body, i need a T ring instead ? And you call this prime focus because there is no extra glass to get in the way ..? Or there abouts :eat:
So what is that non T ring adapter ?

Is this the how it works ..

DSLR body > EOS adapter > T ring ( assuming no lens fitted ) 1.5x or 2 x Teleconverter if wanted > Ext. tube > Focus finder tube > ED80 ??? I saw that there was a 2" diagonal included with the scope, but not sure what that is

Just worked it out .. SW = skywatcher

I wont be using a P+S camera as i already have the Canon - i will have to make do with that as the camera.
I'm trying tnot to overspend, as i will already have to sell some DSLR kit to fumd the D/scope kit

Sorry, the SW is the Skywatcher...but you already found this.

So there are the few options involving DSLR and an astro telescope:
1. dslr (canon) + canon mount specific Tadapter (in one part is the mount for the canon, in the other part is a thread -female- that fits into the focuser's thread - male) + focuser + tube of the telescope
2. dslr (canon) + TC 2x + canon mount specific Tadapter (in one part is the TC mount for the canon, in the other part is a thread -female- that fits into the focuser's thread - male) + focuser + tube of the telescope
3. dslr (canon) + lense (something around 50mm) + eypiece fittet into the focuser's eypiece holder + focuser + tube of the telescope

1+2 = prime focus (the sensor is in the optical focal point), 3 = projection (the image is projected throught the eypiece and captured by the camera lenses or you can fit the sensor infront of the eypiece using a special adapter)

The diagonal (mirror or prism) will angle the light path with 45 or 90 degrees for convenience (in general is for visual). It will fits into the focuser on one part and on the other part you will add the eypiece for visual observations. It is not mandatory and will add extralong, extraweight and extrashake. The sole advantage is that will enable focus on a shorter distance. The far the sensor is from the lenses the more close focus you will get (while move back the camera from the lenses/focuser, the more closer you can focus).
Look here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paulcorfield/canon.htm
In the first image we have the following (from left to right):
- focuser (white aluminium)
- extender (threaded, the tube in black) for close focus enhancement
- T adapter (threaded for the extender in the left, eos mount for the body in the right) which is right in front of the body. It is the same as a normal lense from the mount point of view, is just a ring.
- the body

Here is a short movie, at min 1:00 it will show the T adapter (for Pentax mount): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edPYRMnPSeM. This T adapter is something general, standard for most of the telescopes including SW ED 80.

Thanks again Valy - very helpful.

I think this 1+2 seems best ( No Lens ! )

1. dslr (canon) + canon mount specific Tadapter (in one part is the mount for the canon, in the other part is a thread -female- that fits into the focuser's thread - male) + focuser + tube of the telescope
2. dslr (canon) + TC 2x + canon mount specific Tadapter (in one part is the TC mount for the canon, in the other part is a thread -female- that fits into the focuser's thread - male) + focuser + tube of the telescop

So apart from the 80ED tube, just for a basic kit i only need 3 bits like in the photo... Focuser, Extender , T mount for Canon EOS.

4 bits altogether If i wanted Focus Confirm,... i can buy them ok for the EOS body, but what is the mount on the other side ? Is it M42 x 1 ?

5 bits if i want 1.5x or 2x Tele converter.

I see in the youtube movie that the guy could move the black barrel in and out by just turning the little wheels on the side...what was he doing that for ?

Do all the bits need to be threaded ? I can imagine with threads, that changing bits could be slow

Cheers Valy
Pete

Musoman said:

I think this 1+2 seems best ( No Lens ! )

Click to expand...

Yes ...and no. Yes because no lens so no chromatic aberrations, etc. An no because a bird at 10m is small on the sensor using 1+2, but the same bird at 30m using 3, for example an eyepiece giving 20x-40x magnification, will fill the picture in a similar way as the methods 1+2 will fill. Please note that the way the birds fill the picture depends on the situation, on the eyepiece used, on the sensor size, on the size of the bird, of the distance of the bird, etc.

Musoman said:

Thanks again Valy - very helpful.
So apart from the 80ED tube, just for a basic kit i only need 3 bits like in the photo... Focuser, Extender , T mount for Canon EOS.

Click to expand...

The extender it is not mandatory. I could focus at 8-10m without it, at 5-6m with some extender (4-5cm extension). Focuser is included in the telescope. T adapter for canon is a must but it is not expensive (10-20-30EUR).

I don't know what to say about focus confirm. My pentax has focus confirmation with manual lenses including telescopes. In addition, as presented in the movie (by the way I am in the movie) I use an 2.5x angle finder which enhances a little the manual focus. It is also useful when the telescope is pointed in an uncomfortable position for using the body's viewfinder (pointed right up for example).

The thread it is M42 but it is a different step from the M42 old lens mount (used for old bodies/lenses): M42 x1, x1.5, x2...I don't know exactly.

The little wheels is for focusing: the focuses along with the sensor is moved front and back for focusing far and close objects.

OK - no lens = bird at 10 metres is very small, but i thought that was what the extenders were for, no ?

I prefer the best quality of shot, so if this means do not fit a lens, then i will go with 1+2

If the best quality is with the lens fitted ( say 50mm ) then i will use the lens. So you can focus closer with a lens mounted and then no need for extenders ?

I did not said very small, but small. Well, the problem is simple: best option is 1. A compromise is 2 because the TCs are not perfect. If the bird is not close enough then go closer or buy a longer telescope. After testing and experimenting this options you could go to 3 and you could play around as you want. Anyway a telescope is a very flexible tool and combined with a DSLR and a P&S plus TCs, barlows, extenders, eyepieces, diagonals, etc., you could use it in different configurations for various situations.

Basically all you need is one of these.

http://www.scopesnskies.com/prod/as...amera-adaptor/AC696-2inch to camera/DSLR.html

This does away with the need for a t-ring. Then all you need is a 50mm extension tube in the back of the scope and this should allow you to focus from around 10m to infinity. A bird as small as a Robin at 10m with a 600mm scope is fine with the 80ED and Canon 450D. I use the 450D and hardly ever go above a 1.4X teleconverter for all my photos. The 450D photos can handle a lot of cropping, especially if you shoot in RAW and detail is retained.

There's a couple here but they are a bit in between sizes. Mine is around 60mm and it has a long chrome tube which allows me to pull it out to around 75mm so it might pay to shop around.

http://www.scopesnskies.com/prod/astro engineering/telescope/adaptors/45mm80mm.html

The focus confirm chip should work on the scope but I think once you add a teleconverter it stops working because there's not enough light.

Paul.

Ah more info - excellent :eat:

Thanks for that - seems just the ticket , and also, i now know what size teleconverter to use, as i kept seeing 1¼" or 2" Barlows or GSO whatever, and couldnt find out which i needed.

Re. the focus confirm thing, i believe if one tapes over the correct pins, this confirmation can still be used.

AS for the extension tube, should i then be looking for an adjustable type between say, 40mm and 80mm so i can have the best of both worlds ?

Also Paul, any idea what type and where to look for a mount for the Scope tube to Tripod head ?

Cheers
Pete

Probably just go for both 45mm and 80mm extension tubes but the 80mm will probably get the most use. Mine is generally stuck out about 70mm most of the time. My extension tube is the body of the 2" GSO barlow. The barlow element unscrews and then screws into the EOS adapter.

Have a look at the photo of my scope in my digiscope gallery link at the bottom of this message. What I've done here is modified it slightly for the tripod. The scope comes as standard with a tripod mounting point already fixed to the scope. With the weight of the camera on the scope it shifts the centre of balance and the plate that is fixed on the scope is a bit out of position. What I did was remove the mounting plate and then drilled two new holes in the scope and fixed the mounting plate to a position that perfectly matches the new centre of balance. It's a very easy modification and one I would recommend. You can get away with the original position of the plate on the scope but it can put a strain on the tripod. If you want to to the modification I can do a series of photos but it's very simple.

Paul.

Noted mate - perhaps just an 80mm for now then, and a 2" TC, probably a quality make, and upon reading up here, seems to be DOI ( not found one in EOS mount ) or GSO.
So like you, if i unscrew the TC element, pop it in the adapter, then the original TC barrel is surplus to requirements ?

No need to sort photos if its grief, as i'm fairly capable of doing any mods, as i have a workshop and plenty of tools etc, as long as i know what i'm supoosed to be doing. If its no grief for you to sort pics, then please go ahead, as i'd prefer to only have to do it once, being a beginner :t:

As i originally posted, the shop selling the SW 80ED says it doesn't come with a mount, so thats the reason i asked about this item, as i would need to source something similar to what you have before i can start any mods

PS your webby doesn't load for me

Ah - its working now

There should be a small plate already mounted on the scope like the one in my photo. I need to have a look at my scope as I think I made another modification which was to remove the mounting rings from their plate. The plate they are on is much longer than the small one fitted to the scope and it also has a couple of threaded holes for the tripod screw. I'm pretty sure that is the one I have on my scope now. Must admit it's not something I look at much so I can't remember. I shall have a look in the morning.

The 2X GSO is a barlow lens which is a bit different to a TC. In the UK it tends to get rebranded under different names but if you do a search for 2" 2X ED barlow then it will most likely be the GSO one under a different name. The barlow works well and has the benefit of having the ED glass. The other benefit is the black part that houses the glass elements can be unscrewed and this then screws into the EOS 2" scope adapter.

Taking apart something like the DOI teleconverter is easy enough but mounting the bit that holds the lenses into the scope adapter is a bit more tricky as it's not a straight fit. Because they are cheap enough to find on ebay it's worth trying.

Maybe look out for a 2X Kenko or 2X Sigma APO teleconverter as they both work well. The Kenko 1.4X that I use is very good also and it tends to be the one I use the most.

Paul.

Ok - seems like the mount should be the easy bit of the all gubbins to sort, its the rest of it thats the awkward stuff

Kenkos i know about because of my regular photography, but i would only bother buying the Pro 300 DG, which is the best part of £100, about double a GSO 2" 1.5x - are they that much better quality ?

Can i just recap - the biggest headache for me is all the fittings and extras that go betweem the DSLR body, and the Scope Tube.

Does this look right.. assuming i can simply buy a GSO to fit the EOS body

450D body > GSO TC 1.5x > EXT. Tube, Focus Eyepiece > Scope Tube .

Where does that MAX Ddslr non threaded non T mount bit fit in the chain ?
And where does a Focus Confirm chipped adapter fit in the chain ?

And although a confirm chipped adapter can be bought specifically for an EOS mount, what is the fitting needed for the other side ?

Its so easy to get lost with all this stuff, compared to plain old photgraphy.
Its already become a pain in the butt just trying to work out what it is i need, and i'm wondering whether i should be bothering at all :-C

Re-think B

450D > 1.5xTC in EOS mount > MAX Dslr > 80mm Focus Eyepiece > 80ED Scope Tube

Tha looks a bit more like it - still dont know where a Chipped Focus comfirm adapter fits in though.

Googling a SW 80ED + Canon 450D + Focus confirm adapter doesnt bring up much of anything regarding info

This photo shows roughly how you set it up. In your case my T-ring/2" scope adapter will be replaced by the Max dslr part. The 2" GSO 2X ED barlow is shown with the lens cell already removed and this screws into the Max dslr. The rest of the barlow becomes your extension tube as shown so it's performing more than one job and saves you having to buy extra extension tubes.

As far as I know you can buy the focus confirm chip on ebay and just glue it straight into the Max dslr housing. Others have done that before but it's not something I've personally tried as I have no trouble with manual focus.

I had a look at my scope and I do have the long plate (minus the tube rings) screwed to the scope and this gives a place to mount the tripod.

Paul.

Thanks Paul - starting to make a bit more sense now.

Pictures speak a 1000 words :t:

Just raising funds at the moment - selling off 4 lenses, 2 ball heads, and some guitar equipment

Just bought this lot - it was all together as a kit., 80ED2 pro

Paul , i'm not sure how useful the 5mm and 20mm bits are.

Next on the list is either a 60/70/80mm tube.

1.5x GSO Barlow - but should i use the 1¼" reducer, as these Barlows are cheaper than the 2" Barlows, or is there a compromise in quality ?

My 70mm one I use is the body of the 2X GSO Barlow as per my photo in my last post. Most other barlows will not match the quality of the GSO because the GSO uses ED glass. Plus a smaller 1.25" barlow is much harder to mount where as the 2X GSO just screws into the Max DSLR adapter. I've tried loads of cheap barlows and you will get nothing but hassle, mainly from internal reflections washing out the photo and odd bright areas in the middle of the image. Remember that the GSO barlow also doubles up as your extension tube so you are killing two birds with one stone so it ends up being an economical choice.

The eyepieces are ok if you want to look at things like stars, the moon etc.

Paul.