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Distortion and Glare in the Swarovski 8x32 EL Swarovision (1 Viewer)

henry link

Well-known member
This post is not a complete review. I borrowed a friend’s Swarivski 8x32 EL SV for the narrow purpose of objectively testing two characteristics that have been much discussed here: distortion and glare resistance.


To evaluate distortion I photographed a series of five circles through three binoculars with different distortion profiles. The circles represent about half of the right side of the fields with the dark field edge visible at the right. If angular magnification distortion (the stuff that causes the “globe effect” or “rolling ball”) is present it causes the circles to compress as they near the field edge, turning them into ovals, which resemble foreshortened circles rounding the side of a globe or ball.

As you can see the Swarovski 8x32 EL SV at the top shows much higher angular magnification distortion than the other two near the field edge, in fact at the very edge it’s higher than any other binocular I’ve seen except for other Swarovision models (I haven’t seen the Zeiss SF). In the middle is a Nikon 8x32 SE, another so called “flat field” design, which displays much milder AMD. The bottom binocular is a Zeiss 8x56 FL, which has enough pincushion distortion to essentially correct AMD so that circles remain circles all the way to the field edge. Sorry about the fuzzy circles in the Zeiss image. That’s astigmatism that can’t be focused out.

Pincushion distortion may be absent at the edge of the Swaro field, but it’s not completely absent in the overall distortion profile. Notice that the first three circles coming from the left side show no compression in the Swarovski compared to the Zeiss and actually a little less than the Nikon. That’s because the Swarovski follows the Zeiss approach in applying enough pincushion to avoid AMD over a large part of the field, then quite abruptly in the last 6-8º of apparent field the AMD comes on very strongly. The effect is less like rounding a globe and more like falling off the edge of a flat earth. This kind of compound distortion is sometimes called “moustache” distortion because it results in straight lines turning into wavy handlebar curves instead of the simple arcs produced by ordinary pincushion or barrel distortions.

Whether this kind of distortion is disturbing seems to be highly personal. It doesn’t bother me a bit, but a few here have reported that it made them hurl their cookies.

A couple of other things are visible in this image. One is the way apparent FOV is compressed in binoculars with high AMD. The five circles represent the very same size true FOV in all three of these 8x binoculars, but the compression of shapes toward the field edge in the Swaro and to a lesser extent the Nikon causes their apparent fields to shrink compared to a binocular with little or no AMD like the Zeiss. You can also see the relative differences in color bias among the three.


To evaluate glare resistance in the Swarovski I photographed the interior (middle image below) under two conditions designed to show internal reflections of the sort that cause visible glare. I also photographed the interior of a Zeiss 8x56 FL under the same conditions as a reference (far right image below).

The left photo in the Swarovski image is similar to the interior photos that appear in Allbinos reviews. A very bright entrance pupil (viewed through the eyepiece as the exit pupil) floods the interior with light, revealing most of the reflections that glance back toward the eyepiece, although sometimes the really bad ones right next the exit pupil may be lost in the bright light bleeding out from the overexposed exit pupil. Some of these reflections are quite harmless, either disappearing behind the field stop when the eye is at the correct eye relief distance or so far removed from the exit pupil that they never enter the eye even when the eye is dilated in low light. The potentially damaging ones here are the thin rings of reflection at the very edge of the exit pupil and the spots of reflection from prism edges just outside the rings. The three bright rings near the exit pupil come from the objective lens cell, the focusing lens cell and the first prism aperture.

In the right photo of the Swarovski image I placed a small dark object several feet in front of the binocular to darken the exit pupil while still allowing off-axis glare producing light to enter. This causes one of the lighting conditions where veiling glare is most troublesome: for instance, when the eye is open to perhaps 5mm or more while looking into a darkly shadowed area underneath a bright sky at sunset. As you see the internal reflections are actually much brighter than the dark “subject” being viewed. Looking through the binocular under these difficult lighting conditions produces severe veiling glare, but even while using the binocular normally in daylight I noticed occasional flickers of veiling glare under lighting conditions I would not usually consider very challenging. The Zeiss FL photos, made under the very same test conditions, show just how much better internal reflections can be controlled.

Henry Link
 

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Henry,

A very nice illustration.

It was the moustache distortion of the first generation 8.5x42 Swarovision that caused me most consternation. The more recent samples I've tried appear to have a smoother magnification profile with the inflection point shifted closer to the view periphery like the 8x32 and consequently less bothersome than it was. I still find them a little worse than either the Vanguard Endeavour EDII and ZenRay Prime I own and the SF I've briefly tried. I'll see if I cam manage some photos when I get a chance.

David

PS. Henry, what diameter are those circles?
 
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Hi Henry,
Thanks for report.

Have you tried, or can you try 7x30 or 10x42 Russian 7 element flat field eyepiece binoculars?

Is edge more extreme than Swarovision?
 
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Henry,

Thanks a lot for your post.

I'm not all that worried about the distortion myself. I can see the weird pattern near the edge, but it doesn't disturb me all that much. I'm just not susceptible to rolling ball, it seems. Still, the patterns are interesting, and I'd quite like to see what the patterns of the SF 8x42 look like.

Your evaluation of the glare resistance, however, is even more interesting. It explains the problems I had with the SV 8x32 when I had a long look at it a couple of months ago. On a bright day with some white clouds about I got veiling glare no matter what I did and to such an extent I decided not to buy it.

In all those lengthy discussions about CA, resolution, close focusing and wide fields of view here on the forum the importance of glare resistance seems me to be widely underestimated. And yet it's IMO one of the most important parameters when looking at birding binoculars. I'm quite sure people are more likely to lose IDs because of bad glare resistance than because of some remnants of CA. It kills the contrast, and, in some extreme cases, under more difficult viewing conditions, it may well mean you don't get any details on the bird at all.

Hermann
 
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Henry:

This is an interesting post, but I am disappointed in your trying to compare any 8x32 binocular
with an 8x56.

It is good of you to use the 8x32 SE in the middle, and in your first photo it does show what you
may see with these binoculars. The first 2 are very good to the edges and the Zeiss FL starts to blur
after the smallish 50% sweet spot.

Your mention of rolling ball or globe effect is more than was needed as most of the population,
95% of us will not see it. You do not see it, and I don't either. This is a big issue if some will not
try a binocular over this small issue.

As far as glare resistance, comparing an 8x32 to an 8x56 is pure physics to some point. The difference
in focal point and the physical size, does limit the shrouding needed in a binocular only half the size and
weight.

So how do you like the 8x32 EL SV in normal birding use ? And tell us how they compare to the
Nikon SE and your Zeiss ?

Jerry
 
Henry,

Thanks a lot for your post.

I'm not all that worried about the distortion myself. I can see the weird pattern near the edge, but it doesn't disturb me all that much. I'm just not susceptible to rolling ball, it seems. Still, the patterns are interesting, and I'd quite like to see what the patterns of the SF 8x42 look like.

Your evaluation of the glare resistance, however, is even more interesting. It explains the problems I had with the SV 8x32 when I had a long look at it a couple of months ago. On a bright day with some white clouds about I got veiling glare no matter what I did and to such an extent I decided not to buy it.

In all those lengthy discussions about CA, resolution, close focusing and wide fields of view here on the forum the importance of glare resistance seems me to be widely underestimated. And yet it's IMO one of the most important parameters when looking at birding binoculars. I'm quite sure people are more likely to lose IDs because of bad glare resistance than because of some remnants of CA. It kills the contrast, and, in some extreme cases, under more difficult viewing conditions, it may well mean you don't get any details on the bird at all.

Hermann



Hermann,

I agree completely and have said as much - there are many users that would rather have the outer 5% of the FOV sharp than have a glare-free and high quality centre. Can't say that Swaro marketing doesn't work.......

BTW - nice thread Henry - you are able to articulate more clearly, in one post, what hundreds of other users have opined to some degree. [for years]
 
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Henry:

This is an interesting post, but I am disappointed in your trying to compare any 8x32 binocular
with an 8x56.

It is good of you to use the 8x32 SE in the middle, and in your first photo it does show what you
may see with these binoculars. The first 2 are very good to the edges and the Zeiss FL starts to blur
after the smallish 50% sweet spot.

Your mention of rolling ball or globe effect is more than was needed as most of the population,
95% of us will not see it. You do not see it, and I don't either. This is a big issue if some will not
try a binocular over this small issue.

As far as glare resistance, comparing an 8x32 to an 8x56 is pure physics to some point. The difference
in focal point and the physical size, does limit the shrouding needed in a binocular only half the size and
weight.

So how do you like the 8x32 EL SV in normal birding use ? And tell us how they compare to the
Nikon SE and your Zeiss ?

Jerry

Jerry,

I had no qualms about comparing an 8x32 to an 8x56 for distortion and internal reflections because distortion is an eyepiece characteristic unrelated to aperture and good internal baffling is just as easy to do in a small binocular as a large one. If you want to see an example of a well baffled 8x32 check out the photo below from Allbino's review of the Leica 8x32 Ultravid.

Henry
 

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Jerry,

I had no qualms about comparing an 8x32 to an 8x56 for distortion and internal reflections because aperture and exit pupil size have no effect on those two things, but if you want to see an example of a well baffled 8x32 check out the photo below from Allbino's review of the Leica 8x32 Ultravid.

Henry

Henry:

The pictures may have a use, but not much in actual practice and use.
The Allbino's reviews are good and I like them.
The important thing for me, and most everyone here, is how they perform
in the field.
These photos do not mean anything in daily use.

That is what I would like from you, and how you like using these binoculars.
Did you use these in the field, or only on a tripod ?

That is your next step in evaluation. I do see some advantage in large
aperture optics, but they are often too heavy in price, size and usefulness.
42mm is the most popular and there are many reasons why.

Jerry
 
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The important thing for me, and most everyone here, is how they perform in the field.
These photos do not mean anything in daily use.

Well, Henry's photos explain very well what I saw when I tried the SV 8x32 for two days in the field - and why I decided not to buy them. I found I couldn't live with the glare. I used my 20 year old Leica 8x32 BA for comparison, and while the SV was better in several ways, the old Leica handled glare better than the SV.

I do see some advantage in large
aperture optics, but they are often too heavy in price, size and usefulness.
42mm is the most popular and there are many reasons why.

Quite right.

Hermann
 
Henry:

The pictures may have a use, but not much in actual practice and use.
The Allbino's reviews are good and I like them.
The important thing for me, and most everyone here, is how they perform
in the field.
These photos do not mean anything in daily use.

That is what I would like from you, and how you like using these binoculars.
Did you use these in the field, or only on a tripod ?

That is your next step in evaluation. I do see some advantage in large
aperture optics, but they are often too heavy in price, size and usefulness.
42mm is the most popular and there are many reasons why.

Jerry



Jerry,

These photos tell a lot about the characteristics of binoculars in daily life use. I have identified exactly these reflexes seen on Henry's picture as the origin of the stray light that bothered me when using the 8x32 SV, particularly after sunset. Now, with some additional experience, I am almost able to predict the stray light characteristics of such a binocular without even looking through it, just by inspecting the area that surrounds the exit pupil!

Regarding your remark about the globe effect I have to disagree. At least 30% should be able to see the globe effect in binoculars with close to zero pincushion distortion. If this had been such a non issue you would like us to believe, why then has Zeiss introduced the pincushion distortion in the late 1940s? The globe effect was an issue, and it was regarded sufficiently harmful so that they decided to deliberately add an aberration to their optical design. Most optical designers around the globe followed them.

Cheers,
Holger
 
Hello,

Very good post, Henry!
Agree, indeed, with Hermann about the importance of glare. Both stray lights and, specially, veiling glare!
I think, at least at the top line of the top brands, it should be part of the design to eliminate this veiling glare!
I still see a disturbing veiling or milky glare looking at angles not to extremes to the sun even with my HT 10x42...
If I remember well, my former FL 10x42 was better in this...And the Swarovski Habicht 10x40 is better than the HT. As I see, the HT has a part of the focusing lens ring too bright and shiny that reflect lights back to the objective...I don't know if this can be part of that milky glare...

Thanks!

PHA
 
The globe effect in Russian 7x30 and 10x42 disturbs me enough so I don't use them.

Leica normally control glare and ghost images well. The latter is very important to me.
Also veiling glare is upsetting.

Some binoculars are good, some poor, some awful.
 
Henry,
I won't waste space citing your excellent analysis...I'll just say bravo. Once, again, you nailed it.

Now for a Gestalt insight based on two users. I participate in BF discussions, my wife does not.

I bought my wife an 8X32 Swarovision nearly three years ago and she immediately abandoned her well-used (2004) and much loved Nikon 8X32 SE. She's logged at least a few hundred hours birding and stargazing with her SV. "Wow" is often heard during our outings. She has no complaints whatsoever. None. I've inquired about the focus, light intrusion and rolling ball. Nope, not a problem.

Yesterday, after reading Henry's post, I spent some time outside with her 8X32 SV. Let's get some observational facts on the table without delay. The focus on her SV is fairly stiff in comparison to my 10X50 SV AND the resistance is different in each direction. Hmmmmm. And, Henry's observations are manifest in the glare and light intrusion I saw at various positions in late afternoon lighting. Concerning rolling ball...sorry I'm immune.

I followed up with the owner. She says she likes the stiff focus because it stays put and she doesn't have to fiddle with it as much. During our lengthy SE ownership/use period I was always amazed that I was continually fine focusing and she wasn't. Yep, she has better eyesight! So, a focus that stays put (i.e. the SV focus) is exactly what pleases her the most.

Stray light also seems to escape her view. I know it has to be there, you know it has to be there but she apparently doesn't. She does not roam around the view much so her concentration is primarily on the center field. I tried that and it does reduce the interference but...for me...not completely.

Rolling ball completely escapes her view so that's not an issue.

Conclusion:
After several outings with her 8X32 SV I'm not sure I'd use one as my primary binocular. Then again, I have the 10X50, the 8.5X42 and an 8X32 SE. The unhindered view through the 8X32 SV is stellar so the day may come when I change my mind.

My wife will not, under any circumstances, abandon her 8X32 SV. She is completely satisfied with its performance.

Obviously, viewpoints differ. Some would absolutely hate the focus on our 8X32 SV; we don't. We never see rolling balls and only one of us is affected by intrusive stray light. C'est La Vie.

I posted back in 2012 that the 8X32 SV was the SE's death knell. Nothing's changed as far as we're concerned.
 
David,

The circles are about 70mm, photographed at about 10m. I think an undistorted circle subtends a little more 3º of AFOV, maybe 3.2º. If you want to make comparable photos the 3-3.2º of apparent field per circle is what matters.

Binastro,

Sorry, I don't have access to those binoculars.

Sanjay,

I'm afraid I can't say anything about the 10x42's internal reflections without testing it exactly the same way I tested the 8x32. There may be anecdotal reports about that already, but as you have probably noticed on other topics here those are often conflicting.

Jerry,

I'm going to have to pass on making overall judgements. I only tested for distortion and glare.

Pileatus,

I don't expect anyone to abandon their enthusiasm for the 8x32 SV based on my findings. Enjoy!

Thanks Hermann, Holger, Vespobuteo, James and PHA!

Henry
 
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David,

The circles are about 70mm, photographed at about 10m. I think an undistorted circle subtends a little more 3º of AFOV, maybe 3.2º. If you want to make comparable photos the 3-3.2º of apparent field per circle is what matters.

Thanks Henry. I'll give it a go when I can.

David
 
Well, Henry's photos explain very well what I saw when I tried the SV 8x32 for two days in the field - and why I decided not to buy them. I found I couldn't live with the glare. I used my 20 year old Leica 8x32 BA for comparison, and while the SV was better in several ways, the old Leica handled glare better than the SV.

...

Hermann

Hello Hermann,

I believe that you may have pointed out one of the most important characteristics of the Leica design program. The BA had clearly better glare control than its contemporary competition, like 8x30 Zeiss Dialyt. I have to admit that most of the year, this advantage is not of great importance, but early winter mornings, even at 41º latitude, it certainly may make a difference.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur
 
I believe that you may have pointed out one of the most important characteristics of the Leica design program. The BA had clearly better glare control than its contemporary competition, like 8x30 Zeiss Dialyt. I have to admit that most of the year, this advantage is not of great importance, but early winter mornings, even at 41º latitude, it certainly may make a difference.

Good evening Arthur,

It's funny you should say that. When the Leica 8x32 BA was introduced I compared it at my dealer's shop against my Zeiss 8x30 BGAT*P, and the difference in glare control was so obvious that I bought the Leica almost straightaway. Ever since then the Zeiss is on loan to whoever needs a decent pair of binoculars. I haven't really used it for serious birding myself for the past 20 years.

I think it was then, way back in 1993, that I first understood how important glare control really is.

Hermann
 
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