Theory of evolution (1 Viewer)

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

After watching this immature Prothonotary Warbler eating hemp seeds (Because all the other birds were doing it), I came to the conclusion that a lot of evolutionary change must occur because of the ignorance, experimentation and recklessness of youth.

When asked which came first, the chicken or the egg?, I would venture a guess that it was the chicken. Some young, foolish bird experimenting with pecking about.

Apodemus · Mar 29, 2011

Bird Boy said:
After watching this immature Prothonotary Warbler eating hemp seeds (Because all the other birds were doing it), I came to the conclusion that a lot of evolutionary change must occur because of the ignorance, experimentation and recklessness of youth.

When asked which came first, the chicken or the egg?, I would venture a guess that it was the chicken. Some young, foolish bird experimenting with pecking about.

I don't get your meaning. Can you explain please?

lashinala · Mar 29, 2011

Eggs are much older than chickens.....just sayin'.
I've seen enough goats eat strange things that they are on my list as the 'great experimenters' of mammals. Chickens do a good job at it too....at least the Rhode Islands, etc., that I've seen here.

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

Prothonotary Warblers are insectivores and don't normally eat seed. This bird was hungry and, because other birds were eating seed, it decided to try some. It really didn't know any better.
My theory is that it would have to use mandible muscles in a way that they are not normally used. This would cause a change in the size and strength of those muscles.

If the bird has offspring and teaches them to eat seed, then they would develop these muscle changes at an even earlier age. Eventually, after a few generations, the change would become permanent. The beak should, also, start to change shape. My original little warbler here has triggered a change.

Darwin notes that birds with different sized beaks do better in different situations but, I don't think he ever really touched on how the different sizes of beaks developed in the first place.

Apodemus · Mar 29, 2011

I thought that's what you meant. Lamarck's discredited pre-Darwinian theory of evolution in other words.

Apodemus · Mar 29, 2011

(And yes - eggs are older by several million years!)

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

That is not what the question means. It asks if a bird develops into a chicken because of it's habits or was it born as a chicken?

And, no, it is an extention of Darwin's theory.

Peter C. · Mar 29, 2011

Bird Boy said:
That is not what the question means. It asks if a bird develops into a chicken because of it's habits or was it born as a chicken?

And, no, it is an extention of Darwin's theory.

Umm... in short, no.

Darwin's hypothesis depends on selection based on variation in a character: any given population of a species of bird is going to have a naturally-occurring degree of variation in some character - like bill size, for example. Selection occurs when a some particular bill size is better at doing something - cracking open seeds, for example. Those birds with the bill size that confers this advantage reproduce better, and hence this character (more correctly, the genes that code for this character) will be passed on.

But the key point is this: the character - "larger bill" in this case - is present already in the population, and encoded in the DNA of the individual bird that has it. It is not developed by the bird, during its lifetime. This idea, know as "heritability of acquired characteristics," is, as Apodemus has already pointed out, pure Lamarckism - nothing to do with Darwin at all....

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

But, wouldn't that tend to suggest that these different bird species were somehow just created as they are? God diid it? Intelligent design? Just wondering.

Hotspur · Mar 29, 2011

Bird Boy said:
But, wouldn't that tend to suggest that these different bird species were somehow just created as they are? God diid it? Intelligent design? Just wondering.

There is no god, only the carbon cycle and evolution.

fugl · Mar 29, 2011

Bird Boy said:
But, wouldn't that tend to suggest that these different bird species were somehow just created as they are? God diid it? Intelligent design? Just wondering.

Not at all. Evolution by natural selection of random heritable variation is an extremely wasteful process & the very opposite of any form of “intelligent design”, human or divine. But, wasteful or not, there's overwhelming evidence that that's how species originate.

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

I'm asking because I don't know .

Back to the warbler. Yes, the beak and some other physical changes would occur because of dietary change but, I know that ingestion of certain things can, indeed, alter one's DNA. Call it damage or call it change.

I don't think I'm getting an answer at what point different species pop in, so to speak. I am a firm believer in carbon evolution. I just don't see how a major change in diet, as with the warbler, can be dismissed and ignored as a possible trigger to an evolutionary change.

fugl · Mar 29, 2011

Bird Boy said:
....but, I know that ingestion of certain things can, indeed, alter one's DNA. . ...

I don't think so, at least not in an evolutionarily significant way. And, anyway, how do you "know" this?

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

LSD? Radiation? There are many things known to damage or change chromosomes.

What triggers are considered significant in evolutionary change if not diet and environment?

Humans are omnivores and can adapt to a vegetarian diet but, what happens to a carnivore that changes to a vegetarian diet?

David FG · Mar 29, 2011

Bird Boy said:
LSD? Radiation? There are many things known to damage or change chromosomes.

What triggers are considered significant in evolutionary change if not diet and environment?

Humans are omnivores and can adapt to a vegetarian diet but, what happens to a carnivore that changes to a vegetarian diet?

Random mutation for one.

Well, if it tries it in one go the answer is simple: it starves to death. Try feeding a pet cat potatoes. (I wasn't being serious, don't try it.)

Mysticete · Mar 29, 2011

as others have said, you are confusing Lamarkian with Darwinist evolution. There are things which can alter an organism's DNA, but not the act of chewing or a dietary change.

Apodemus · Mar 29, 2011

To be heritable, the changes would have to occur in the sex cells. It's quite possible that some environmental features could alter these, but not eating cabbages.

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

I believe you all but, someone tell me of an evolutionary change that they have experienced. It is going on, continually. always has been, always will be. Are we not seeing the trees for the forest?

Apodemus · Mar 29, 2011

Bird Boy said:
I believe you all but, someone tell me of an evolutionary change that they have experienced. It is going on, continually. always has been, always will be. Are we not seeing the trees for the forest?

Individuals don't experience change, populations do.

Bird Boy · Mar 29, 2011

Surely, someone has noticed something that they believe will bring about a change. It's going on every millisecond. And, yet, when I see what I think is a possible change, it is dismissed.

It is generations that I was talking about. If a pair of carnivores don't die from changing to a vegetarian diet but, manage to, barely, exist, what will their offspring be like? Or the next generation after that?

I believe, as we over populate and start running out of food and the radiation increases due to ruining the atmosphere, if we survive, we will start evolving into much smaller, thick skinned creatures, much like cochroaches.

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