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Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (5 Viewers)

From my own perspective (that of somebody who was convinced by the Luneau video, but has become gradually less convinced by the month ever since), I am curious about the context of the various blurry photos and videos we have become used to.

Do the people producing these images ever manage anything that is in sharp focus, or is everything they shoot fuzzy and indistinct?

Or, do they habitually produce perfect photos of every other species?

If the former, you have to suggest there's something wrong with their skills and/or equipment. If the latter, you have to wonder why everything else is tack-sharp and it's only the "IBWO" that goes all blurry. Maybe that's become diagnostic?

I would very much like to believe (in the sense of conviction, not faith) that the IBWO persists, but time passing without evidence does nothing at all to aid that. I think for many people this search season just concluding is make-or-break.
 
cyberthrush said:
the reason these searches are happening NOW instead of in the 50s, 60s, or 70s, when they should have, is because of the impact of skeptics back then

I see this said again and again, and it is just NOT true. Nobody wrote books about it (because they didn't get definitive evidence), but EVERY IBWO sighting from the 40s on HAS been followed up on. They didn't spend months searching because they were followed up on by BIRDERS who realize that if the bird is there it should be able to be refound. Rewards have been offered (Texas) and birders have gone in the field for EVERY decent report since the 40s. It just has not been put in a book. Take a look at page 134 of Jackson's book to see where Tanner went in the 70s. He pretty much spent a decade following up on leads. The 80s found Jackson following up on leads. And countless other birders (birders now in their 60s) have spent time in southern swamps following up on rumors. The only thing new here is blogs and forums were we all can hear first hand about the efforts.
 
Ilya Maclean said:
I'd be interested to know whom specifically and for what you were referring to when you accuse sceptics of being intellectually dishonest?

To answer your question Ilya, please read my responses to Tom Nelson (AKA hgr389) starting about page 10 of this thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=33968&page=10&pp=25

And continued in this thread:
Evidence for the Survival of the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=40201&page=1&pp=25

Also read what buck3m has to say as well.

Both of these posters have been intellectually dishonest in the way they have dealt with articles that they themselves have quoted from. They both have 'twisted' what has been written in those articles.
 
Since this began with an accusation of 'sceptics' being intellectually dishonest, perhaps we should look at one definition (from Wikipedia):

"Intellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position known to be false. Rhetoric is used to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. If a person is aware of the evidence and the conclusion it portends, yet holds a contradictory view, it is intellectual dishonesty. If the person is unaware of the evidence, their position is ignorance, even if in agreement with the scientific conclusion."

1. Belief that the IBWO is most likely extinct is not a position known to be false.
2. There is no overwhelmingly conclusive evidence that the IBWO is extant.
3. 'Sceptics', therefore, are not knowingly holding a contradictory view against the weight of evidence.
4. Neither are 'sceptics' ignorant of a weight of contradictory evidence.

Under this definition, then, it is unfair to accuse 'sceptics' of intellectual dishonesty, nor indeed of ignorance.
 
Mike Johnston said:
Since this began with an accusation of 'sceptics' being intellectually dishonest, perhaps we should look at one definition (from Wikipedia):

"Intellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position known to be false. Rhetoric is used to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. If a person is aware of the evidence and the conclusion it portends, yet holds a contradictory view, it is intellectual dishonesty. If the person is unaware of the evidence, their position is ignorance, even if in agreement with the scientific conclusion."

1. Belief that the IBWO is most likely extinct is not a position known to be false.
2. There is no overwhelmingly conclusive evidence that the IBWO is extant.
3. 'Sceptics', therefore, are not knowingly holding a contradictory view against the weight of evidence.
4. Neither are 'sceptics' ignorant of a weight of contradictory evidence.

Under this definition, then, it is unfair to accuse 'sceptics' of intellectual dishonesty, nor indeed of ignorance.

Wikipedia is so full of misinformation I doubt it should be considered the final word on anything.
 
humminbird said:
Wikipedia is so full of misinformation I doubt it should be considered the final word on anything.
I'm well aware of that. (Does that include the IBWO entry, which keeps editing out any 'sceptical' additions? ;) ). I did say 'under this definition'. But if you can point out why this definition is 'misinformation', please do so.
 
Mike Johnson said:
"Under this definition, then, it is unfair to accuse 'sceptics' of intellectual dishonesty, nor indeed of ignorance."

Tom Nelson WAS being "intellectually dishonest" when he 'twisted' the meaning of what was said in any given article so that it would 'fit into his pre-existing belief'. This type of "intellectually dishonesty" really has nothing to do with 'proving that the IBWO is or is not extant'.

Please read my reponses to Tom Nelson in the provided links in post #9826 and this will become clear.
 
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timeshadowed said:
Mike Johnson said:
"Under this definition, then, it is unfair to accuse 'sceptics' of intellectual dishonesty, nor indeed of ignorance."

Tom Nelson WAS being "intellectually dishonest" when he 'twisted' the meaning of what was said in any given article so that it would 'fit into his pre-existing belief'. This type of "intellectually dishonesty" really has nothing to do with 'proving that the IBWO is or is not extant'.

Please read my reponses to Tom Nelson in the provided links in post #9826 and this will become clear.
Can't you give us an example of this 'twisting' rather than have us searching through pages of posts?
 
Mike Johnston said:
Can't you give us an example of this 'twisting' rather than have us searching through pages of posts?

It really is not that hard to find if you use the url's that were given. Just scroll down until you find my posts. They are very obvious and numerous. I should not have to do your homework for you.
 
timeshadowed said:
It really is not that hard to find if you use the url's that were given. Just scroll down until you find my posts. They are very obvious and numerous. I should not have to do your homework for you.

I just read both of those pages and I can find no instances of intellectual dishonesty. I see folks arguing and not listening to each other. I see spurious comparisions with other species. I really have no idea what you mean Timeshadowed. Perhaps if you want people to understand your point, you would cut and paste examples.
 
humminbird said:
Wikipedia is so full of misinformation I doubt it should be considered the final word on anything.


In a recent article in "Nature" it was demonstrated that Wikipedia is almost as accurate as the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

I would be interested to see what the EB says about the IBWO. I would imagine it is not as up-to-date as Wikipedia but probably more accurate – as a result of the phenomenon mentioned by Mike!

Cheers
 
I will not have access to the computer until later tonight. But I didn't just mean that the examples were limited to only those TWO pages. It was a running debate. You will just have to find my posts and read THEM. Yes, you will have to 'work' to find the information, but I'm not the one wanting the answers. I already know what is there. Why do you 'sceptics' always want to be spoon-fed?
 
timeshadowed said:
I will not have access to the computer until later tonight. But I didn't just mean that the examples were limited to only those TWO pages. It was a running debate. You will just have to find my posts and read THEM. Yes, you will have to 'work' to find the information, but I'm not the one wanting the answers. I already know what is there. Why do you 'sceptics' always want to be spoon-fed?
Probably because we haven't memorised every single IBWO post. And, believe it or not, what might be 'obvious' to you may not be to others. Just one example where you feel what was written in an article was 'twisted' is not too much to ask is it? Or are you unwilling or unable to do that? And why do you 'believers' always have to be cryptic and mysterious. :bounce:
 
Mike Johnston said:
Since this began with an accusation of 'sceptics' being intellectually dishonest, perhaps we should look at one definition (from Wikipedia):

"Intellectual dishonesty is the advocacy of a position known to be false. Rhetoric is used to advance an agenda or to reinforce one's deeply held beliefs in the face of overwhelming contrary evidence. If a person is aware of the evidence and the conclusion it portends, yet holds a contradictory view, it is intellectual dishonesty. If the person is unaware of the evidence, their position is ignorance, even if in agreement with the scientific conclusion."

1. Belief that the IBWO is most likely extinct is not a position known to be false.
2. There is no overwhelmingly conclusive evidence that the IBWO is extant.
3. 'Sceptics', therefore, are not knowingly holding a contradictory view against the weight of evidence.
4. Neither are 'sceptics' ignorant of a weight of contradictory evidence.

Under this definition, then, it is unfair to accuse 'sceptics' of intellectual dishonesty, nor indeed of ignorance.

These definitions all seem pretty reasonable to me... It still amuses me that people are so persistant on proving their opinions (or trying to sway others opinions maybe?), afterall its status is simply not known! Why is it that folks can't just have an opinion, biologists can't do their work in an attempt to get to the bottom of it all, and writers can't publish books on such a fascinating story without all the conspiracy theories, reputation attacks, and various nasty accusations?

Still appreciating those of all opinions that show respect...

Russ
 
Cuban IBWO photos--implications for habitat, wariness

Touche said:
Recently-discovered IBWO images from 1940s/50s Cuba over at Cornell here.
(Thanks to Cyberthrush for alerting these on his blog)
...
Yes, thanks CT! A couple of interesting points about IBWO field marks and biology may be evident in the photos. There are so few photos of the species, any new ones are of interest. Here are some of my impressions. (I'm a pretty good birder, and a good photographer, for what that's worth.)

First photo (the one from the Moa area in 1956 by George Lamb):
1-The bird is in a pine forest. I have read in several other places some interesting statements about how pine forest may have been more important than is generally appreciated for the IBWO in the United States (Cyberthrush, for example, and apparently a hypothesis of the ornithologist Lester Short). Both the Cuban IBWO (perhaps a different species) and the Imperial Woodpecker lived in pines. Reading, recently, Lawrence Earley's Looking for Longleaf, I am impressed how extensive, and full of large trees, the southeastern Longleaf forests were. The range of the IBWO and the Longleaf largely overlapped, and in Florida the similar Slash Pine (Pinus elliottii) was present. The Ivory-bill could have hardly avoided these pine forests, and the severe decline of the IBWO (catastrophic in the 1880's, apparently) does correlate with the decline of the Longleafs. Reading accounts of the Singer Tract birds, one wonders if their decline could have been due to the failure to protect surrounding pine forests, if any. (I believe the birds declined or left mostly before their breeding areas were logged.) Tanner concentrated on the bottomland sites, but perhaps the birds were foraging in pines.

2-The pines at the Moa site were not that large. Of course, Lamb found no breeding there--perhaps it was not optimal habitat.

3-Lamb got close enough with as standard lens (no telephoto according to Gallagher's account) to get an identifiable photo. Looking at the full-size photo, if that is nearly the full frame, I'd say he was within 100 feet (30 meters), maybe closer. The bird was not that shy--it certainly did not fly for miles on sighting a human, and I imagine Lamb was not wearing a Ghillie suit!

3b-The bird in Lamb's distant photo is easily identifiable as an IBWO, both due to the white wing patches and the white stripe on the back extending up the neck. This is visible even on the highly-enlarged, grainy photo, made with 1950's optcial technology by an amateur photographer. The white bill is not visible.

The second photo, from circa 1941, is interesting for much the same reasons:

4-The bird is roosting, or nesting, in a dead pine tree. It is not that large of a tree, either. (Of course, the Cuban population was almost gone then, so it may have been in poor habitat.)

5-The bird appears to have allowed a very close approach. Although there is no information available about the camera, the photo is not highly enlarged--I don't see any sign of graininess. (Compare the enlarged photo by Lamb, which is very grainy.) It is unlikely the photographer had a telephoto, because these were not common except among professional photographers at that time. If this was taken with a standard lens, the photographer was very close indeed. The angle of the photo also indicates the photographer was looking up at quite an angle--that he might have been almost at the base of the tree.

6-That photo shows the field marks of the Ivory-bill very well: white wing-patches, white stripe on back and neck, and white bill.

Some conclusions:
I-Ivory-bills may have depended a lot more on upland pine forests than most realize today. Efforts to "restore habitat" for this bird seem to be focusing on bottomland hardwood swamps. Such efforts may be ineffective, even if the IBWO still exists.

II-The Cuban Ivory-bills were not particularly wary, matching, I feel, the historical accounts of North American birds--wary when persecuted, not overly wary when not molested. (See notes below)

III-Even photographs made with consumer-grade equipment from the 1940's and 1950's show the field marks of an IBWO at a distance. Compare the recent fuzzy images (Luneau, Harrison, et al.) put forward as evidence of the continued existence of the IBWO. The comparison is not flattering. Surely people could do better today with digital sensors and the excellent telephoto zooms now available on still and video cameras.


***More on tameness or not, of the IBWO***

James Tanner's accounts of the Singer tract birds indicate they were somewhat shy around the nest (see quotes of Nancy Tanner's statements in this forum), but could be approached fairly closely without camouflage in other situations. Tanner, The Ivory-billed Woodpecker, p. 63: "When I began following the birds to observe their behavior, they were at first shy and alert,..., and did not allow too close an approach. But they rapidly became used to a person and in a day or so would pay little or no attention to one a moderate distance away. I frequently stood almost directly under the tree in which they were feeding without disturbing them." On that same page, Tanner reports an account by Arthur Wayne that IBWO were very shy in an area where they had been collected intensively.

Likewise the artist Don Eckleberry found the lone Singer Tract IBWO present in 1944 to be quite approachable--he followed it for days, guided by a local man, Jesse Laird. I do not see in Eckleberry's account that either of them wore camo. (Search for the Rare Ivorybill. Terres, ed., Discovery--Great Moments in the Lives of Outstanding Naturalists, pp. 195-207. Lippincott, 1961.)

Historical accounts tell of the ability of artists and ornithologists to approach the birds for a good look and/or shot (usually both, the art following the shot, of course). See Cornell's page for a summary. Catesby saw them, Wilson saw them, and Audubon saw them many times. All, it seems, were able to get close enough to obtain specimens with 18th or 19th century firearms.

Cyberthrush tells us how Native American hunters were able to take IBWO with (presumably) bow-and-arrow, using the bills and plumage for ceremonial objects. See his interesting essay, The Iconic Ivory-bill. Native Americans were able to approach the birds closely enough for a bow-and-arrow kill, and had done so for centuries. Note that the birds were under hunting pressure from Native Americans for millenia. To propose that they suddenly developed supernatural shyness in the 20th century seems ludicrous to me. Don Hendershot's tongue-in-cheek hypothesis that recent sightings actually represent a previously undescribed species, Campephilus willowispis, makes more sense than that!
 
On a lighter note, an archeological team, digging in Washington, DC, has uncovered 10,000 year-old bones and fossil remains of what is believed to be the first Politician (see photo)...
 

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pcoin said:
III-Even photographs made with consumer-grade equipment from the 1940's and 1950's show the field marks of an IBWO at a distance. Compare the recent fuzzy images (Luneau, Harrison, et al.) put forward as evidence of the continued existence of the IBWO. The comparison is not flattering. Surely people could do better today with digital sensors and the excellent telephoto zooms now available on still and video cameras.

Ironically, the autofocus of a video camera is why Tyler Hicks failed to get video from a close encounter last Christmas eve. There have been basic clearly identifiable still shots of purported Ivory-billed Woodpeckers (1971, 2005) which skeptics assume to be fakes. Of course, getting a good photo under less than ideal conditions is more a function of the observer's photographic skills than of the equipment. I'm not aware that anyone doing extensive searching is a top notch bird photographer.
 
emupilot said:
Ironically, the autofocus of a video camera is why Tyler Hicks failed to get video from a close encounter last Christmas eve. There have been basic clearly identifiable still shots of purported Ivory-billed Woodpeckers (1971, 2005) which skeptics assume to be fakes.


Are we talking about TMGuys efforts here, or have I missed something. If not I think it a rather larger subsection of the population than hardcore skeptics who assume its fake.
emupilot said:
Of course, getting a good photo under less than ideal conditions is more a function of the observer's photographic skills than of the equipment. I'm not aware that anyone doing extensive searching is a top notch bird photographer.

I do feel compelled to ask why the heck not, it would seem like a pretty sensible thing to get good photographers in there, in much the same way that it makes sense to get serious birders in there.
 
pcoin said:
.... Native Americans were able to approach the birds closely enough for a bow-and-arrow kill, and had done so for centuries. Note that the birds were under hunting pressure from Native Americans for millenia. To propose that they suddenly developed supernatural shyness in the 20th century seems ludicrous to me....

Pat offers a lot here for discussion/debate but I'll just stick to the one point he makes above (I tire of all the back-and-forths that can go on forever and won't change anyone's minds at this point). But as to shyness: I find nothing 'supernatural' about it; quite in line with evolutionary pressures really -- IBWOs in the 19th century may not have been significantly shy at a time when humans frequented their habitat in much greater numbers (although I think it worth saying that the vast majority of wild bird species in general ARE wary of humans, it's just a matter of degree). It doesn't take a great leap to imagine that as humans proceeded to hunt this creature and destroy its habitat individuals remaining became increasingly shy/wary -- indeed only the 'wariest' surviving in many cases (and maybe birds in one geographic region, say Fla., became wary faster than those in another region, say La.). Carry that forward 60-100 years and how wary would any remaining birds be? I think possibly, VERRRRRY. Is this speculative (like most things about IBWO behavior); of course, but I think it easily fits what we know of basic animal adaptation and survival of the "fittest".
 
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