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exposure (1 Viewer)

Robin, you are too kind. :)

I've no plans to visit Canada any time soon, but I appreciate the offer. Who knows, one day.....

As for my contributions to this thread, so long as I am able to help, I am pleased to do so. Certainly the thread has had plenty of views, so I hope the silent majority are finding it useful.
 
..............

You can see larger versions of these images, and more, in another album I have uploaded. The pictures there are uncropped and have no sharpening or NR adjustments. I have made minor changes to expoure for just a few images - maybe up to +/- 0.3 stops, or less, and maybe a little highlight recovery where the sky was a little too bright, but most have no adjustments. They are not finished images, just examples of what I was able to accomplish with the 7D and 100-400. Every single shot was with manual exposure. All shots were with IS turned off. The bird shots were all hand held. All other shots were with the aid of a monopod. The album is probably best viewed as a slideshow with your browser in fuul screen mode, although if you want to see EXIF data you will need to view each image one at a time.

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/EezyTiger/1600?authkey=Gv1sRgCO-zsJ3YrIXnfQ#

The shots at the end, of the LTT and robin, were added to the album later on and are not from the zoo trip. They were, however, taken with the 7D and 100-400.

Tim

I downloaded Picasa months ago for ease of access to my photos. I have begun considering its merits as a way to share up to a Gb of images without incurring the cost of and having to manage the limitations of a website.

Your views on the pros and cons of Picasa as a website album provider would be much appreciated, please? Do you have a website?
 
I don't have a website because I don't operate commercially and so I have no need to drive traffic to "my" site. I also don't have, and won't go anywhere near any social networking sites like Facebook etc..

I use Picasaweb to host photos I choose to share, but I seldom make whole albums available, so I just use it as a convenient place to dump/accumulate individual photos that I want to make known to people as part of my participation on web forums such as this one.

The pros -
It offer plenty of capacity for my needs, is free, and doesn't place any irksome restrictions on the free account functionality. Uploading is easy and it is simple enough to make sure my photos stay unmolested by the upload process.

The cons -
Constructing a URL in order to make a direct link to an individual image is a bit of a pain, requiring a box to be ticked, a dropdown selection to be altered, a link to be copied, pasted and then edited before it is usable the way I want to use it, but I'm used to the processes involved and it doesn't take me long to get what I need.

I've also tried Flickr and hate it. I've also dabbled briefly with some other hosting site (can't remember the name now) but hated that as well. So long story short, I stick with Picasaweb because it winds me up less than other sites, and 1GB of free storage is ample for my needs.
 
I took a quick look at your site and will spend more time later having a look around. I'm actually not a birder as such - certainly not an ornithologist or twitcher - but a photographer who enjoys photographing birds as well as many other things. To be honest I am extremely poor at bird identification and know nothing about their habitats and behaviours, but with a few years of DSLR experience behind me, I am at least getting the hang of the photographic side of things.

As far as exposure is concerned, whether shooting weddings, motorsport, wildlife or many other things, there really is little difference in how you should approach setting your exposure. Things might get more complicated when you start adding flash, or shooting landscape scenes with high dynamic range, but fundamentally, when shooting digital, it's all about exposing for the highlights and "developing" for the shadows. When you shoot raw, your aim is to collect data, so get as much of it as you can. When you shoot to JPEG, well, that's another story, and one which does not interest me in the slightest.
 
As far as exposure is concerned, whether shooting weddings, motorsport, wildlife or many other things, there really is little difference in how you should approach setting your exposure.

Personally I don't agree with this but I may well be in the minority... when shooting people I tend to use manual, doing it all manual allows full control over the light. However when shooting birds I rarely use manual, I'd normally shot in AV and dial in a bit of exposure comp as needed. This way I can grab a shot of anything that pops up and know it will be near enough on the exposure.

I was photographing (well trying to photograph) a nightingale this morning, it was moving between a bush that was in direct sunlight and a bush in deep shade. Had I exposed manually I would have had to choose one and hope the bird popped up in the right place, there was ~4 stops between the areas it was in. In the end after 2+ hours I had the bird in view for a few seconds and was able to get a few nicely exposed shots (shame everything else about them was wrong)! Manual works well in some situations, but as a birder who wants to get a shot I prefer to use AV and allow the camera to deal with the exposure for me.
 
Personally I don't agree with this but I may well be in the minority... when shooting people I tend to use manual, doing it all manual allows full control over the light. However when shooting birds I rarely use manual, I'd normally shot in AV and dial in a bit of exposure comp as needed. This way I can grab a shot of anything that pops up and know it will be near enough on the exposure.

I'm in the same minority, possibly even more so because for most of my people photography outside a studio I use AV. If I'm allowed the luxury of time to set a shot up I'll use manual but thats often only posed shots at weddings.
 
Guys, you seems to have chosen to quote only part of what I said, entirely overlooking this bit....

fundamentally, when shooting digital, it's all about exposing for the highlights and "developing" for the shadows.

In the paragraph you have quoted from I never said anyone had to stick rigidly to manual exposure. I didn't even mention manual exposure.

My approach to setting exposure is basically to ETTR, or at the very least, never to destroy important highlight detail and never to underexpose. I follow the same approach regardless of the type of subject and scene. I pay attention to the meter and I pay attention to the histogram to help guide me towards achieving that goal. That is what I mean when I say the approach is the same.

p.s. I might add that my responses in this thread have been in reply to those who have experienced difficulty in obtaining consistent exposures, perhaps in tricky conditions. If you already have a system figured out that works for you then please carry on. I have an approach that works for me. You have an approach that works for you. For those who at the moment don't have a working approach at all I have simply offered my take on it.

p.p.s. regarding the anecdote about the nightingale - my question would be - did you need/want a picture taken both in deep shade and also in the sunlit part of the bush, or would you have been happier with just one or the other? Personally I'd be after the sunlit shot, and be set up for that scenario, and would simply chose to wait out the periods when it wss in deep shade. But that's just me. I prefer my birds to be lit.
 
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Guys, you seems to have chosen to quote only part of what I said, entirely overlooking this bit....

In the paragraph you have quoted from I never said anyone had to stick rigidly to manual exposure. I didn't even mention manual exposure.

My approach to setting exposure is basically to ETTR, or at the very least, never to destroy important highlight detail and never to underexpose. I follow the same approach regardless of the type of subject and scene. I pay attention to the meter and I pay attention to the histogram to help guide me towards achieving that goal. That is what I mean when I say the approach is the same.

p.s. I might add that my responses in this thread have been in reply to those who have experienced difficulty in obtaining consistent exposures, perhaps in tricky conditions. If you already have a system figured out that works for you then please carry on. I have an approach that works for me. You have an approach that works for you. For those who at the moment don't have a working approach at all I have simply offered my take on it.

p.p.s. regarding the anecdote about the nightingale - my question would be - did you need/want a picture taken both in deep shade and also in the sunlit part of the bush, or would you have been happier with just one or the other? Personally I'd be after the sunlit shot, and be set up for that scenario, and would simply chose to wait out the periods when it wss in deep shade. But that's just me. I prefer my birds to be lit.

You may not have mentioned manual exposure in that post but you have been a very vocal advocate of it in many recent threads. I was just explaining that my approach to bird photography is different... I too am trying to offer suggestions that may help others.

As for the nightingale, ideally I would like to get a shot in the open but without direct sunlight (the true colours show better with slightly muted light). However I'm a birder (and was long before I picked up a camera) and I'd rather have a shot of the bird in deep shade than no shot at all. You mentioned that you're "actually not a birder as such" so I guess you wouldn't be happy with to settle for a lesser shot just to get something on the bird.

Another example. A couple of years ago there was a red-flanked bluetail in Norfolk and I was eager to get a shot of it (I'd only seen two before and not managed anything on them). So I spent six hours on site watching the bird move around and hoping it would pose for me. I'd have loved to have got it in a well lit situation but it didn't happen so I had to settle for one in deep shade under a tree. I know it's not a great photo, but I did get a shot of the bird so I was happy.

I'm not saying you are wrong to work the way you do, I'm just explaining why, as a birder, I work in a different way.
 

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Yep, I can understand that point of view. We all have our own reasons for taking our photos. It sounds like you're more interested in the bird, whereas I'm more interested in the photography, which is fair enough

For me to keep a photograph at all it needs to either....

- good enough to sell through a stock agency;
- good enough for display at home on my 40" 1920x1080 TV.

That means that as well as being "interesting" (subject, lighting, background, composition) it needs to be sharp, well exposed, noise free, and large enough to fill the TV screen, preferably at no more than a 50% crop. Anything else is either a "practice shot", which I might keep for a bit, just for reference, or plain junk that goes straight in the bin. I have no interest at all in keeping "documentary" photographs of birds, or shots where the subject is not large enough in the frame to make a decent 1920x1080 image (which ideally means having at least 3840x2160 good pixels after cropping).

Unfortunately, I do seem to take rather a lot of practice shots, and more than my fair share of junk too. Hopefully, the more I practice the less junk I will end up with, but my keeper rate is pretty low, usually because I just can't fill the frame enough to make it worth keeping. At least my exposures are pretty good though :)
 
my keeper rate is pretty low, usually because I just can't fill the frame enough to make it worth keeping.
You don't have to fill the frame to have a photograph that's worth keeping.
Sometimes shots showing a bit of the environment can be just as nice.

BTW I know it's a bit off topic but I just thought I'd mention it;).
 
You're probably right that we are coming at it from different directions. For me any shot is better than nothing, though I still hope to get good photographs. I guess you're main aim is to take good photos, whereas I want to record what I have seen. My criteria for keeping an image is very different, if I've not photographed a species before I will keep images even if they are only poor record shots (It's still the bird I saw). However I always want to improve on what I have and my ideal is to get shots that require little or no cropping and will stand up to being printed to a decent size.
 
You don't have to fill the frame to have a photograph that's worth keeping.
Sometimes shots showing a bit of the environment can be just as nice.

totally agree - some of the best bird photos around are environmental shots, I keep trying to train myself to look for these shots rather than just trying for frame fillers. A prime example - http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=40296 I doubt there are many better shots on BF.
 
You don't have to fill the frame to have a photograph that's worth keeping.
Sometimes shots showing a bit of the environment can be just as nice.

BTW I know it's a bit off topic but I just thought I'd mention it;).
Of course, I agree the subject doesn't need to fill the frame, but the scene/composition overall still has to work well for my intended purposes, and the itty bitty 800x533 images that might be OK for a forum will not get the job done for me or a stock agency.

For example, Alamy has pretty strict acceptance criteris, not least of which is that the uploaded files need to be 16 megapixels or more. Interpolation is allowed, but you can only push a file so far, and only if the quality is excellent to begin with. Details here - http://www.alamy.com/contributor/help/prepare-images.asp. So a file that might crop down nicely to 1600x1067 for viewing at 50% as an 800x533 web image is not going to be much use for filling my 1920x1080 TV screen at acceptable quality, or for submitting to Alamy. But yes, I do keep some "environmental" images....
 

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I,too, would like to thank Tim for his clear answers and explanations delivered so pleasantly.
I wonder how many people in the early stage of their photographic hobby have been helped by this thread. Dozens I'll bet ! And again I speculate on how many people read Bird Forum threads without posting (the Lesser Spotted Lurkers like myself) but learn so much from them.
It is the ice berg analogy.
Tim, you are a gentleman.............B :)
Regards
Robin
I for one would like to second Robin's remarks. As someone who has tried for 50+ years to capture planes in flight usually on Tv settings and mostly unsuccessfully exposure-wise I have resolved this season to shoot in Manual thanks to Tim's thoughtful and patient explanations. On behalf of all lurkers, thanks again Tim!:t:
 
As far as exposure is concerned ..... fundamentally, when shooting digital, it's all about exposing for the highlights and "developing" for the shadows. When you shoot raw, your aim is to collect data, so get as much of it as you can. ...

I grossly underexposed for this shot (from a hide in March @4.50pm) and would have expected (from your comment about overexposing being less difficult to recover from than underexposing) that I would not have had much success trying to improve such a dull image ... so I tried to correct the image using Lightroom (once) and CS4 (once) from RAW (first image). I honestly can't remember which is which from images 2 & 3. Please comment on the quality of the "corrected" images with reference to your theory re "exposing for the highlights and "developing" for the shadows". This is not to waste your time, Tim, but for my education, please?
 

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Brendan, the quality of your recovery looks good to me. I don't recall ever saying that you could not rescue an image by increasing the exposure in post, and your flexibility to do that is increased when (a) you are shooting at low ISOs to begin with; (b) not underexposing too much; (c) have a large enough subject that you are not cropping aggressively in order to get the composition you desire; (d) use a camera that has large, intrinsically clean pixels to begin with.

Quite simply, by underexposing an image and then recovering it later you are having to push up your signal from within the noise in the shadows, but in so doing you are pushing up the noise itself. Think of it like turning up the volume on a quiet tape recording or a quiet section of an LP. The music might get louder, but so does the hiss and the crackles and pops. Given the choice, it is better to record your signal correctly, or a little loud (but not so loud that you get without distortion/clipping) so that if need be you can turn the volume down and reduce the intrusion of the unwanted noise.

In addition to the above, if you refer back to the article on ETTR, you will note that as well as suffering increased noise, you are also going to record less image detail as well, because your important tones will have fewer discrete steps in the RGB values with which to describe your pixels. If you then try to brighten the picture to compensate you will be stretching out the tonal scale, causing gaps in the histogram, which if pursued too far can appear as posterisation in the image. This is less of a problem with raw files than JPEG, and may not necessarily be visible, but the issue is a potential risk.

If you have a scene with an extreme dynamic range then you may have no choice but to end up with the shadow details underexposed, simply to protect the highlights. In such a situation, unless you can reduce the dynamic range, perhaps with filters, or by adding light to the shadows, you will have to do the best you can, and perhaps compromise your highlights a little if shadow detail is more important. However, in a scene of low dynamic range, there really is no reason to be underexposing anything, and best practice would be to avoid it.

Here is an example from my 7D at 1600 ISO. The attachments are....

1. Full image, no edits. The noise in the file is not really offensive because I have reduced the file to approx 20%. If the subject had been small in the frame, requiring a heavy crop, the story might be different;;
2. 100% crop, no edits. The noise is pretty evident when viewed at this scale;
3. 100% crop, exposure increased by +1. If we pretend that the original was underexposed and we did actually need to increase exposure by 1 stop then this would be looking pretty ugly right now. You can imagine what Alamy might have to say about such a file;
4. 100% crop, exposure reduced to -1. If the original file had been purposely overexposed by a stop, while still preserving highlights, this is how the noise would diminish simply by correcting the overexposure. There is quite a difference in outcome between underexposing by 1 stop vs overexposing by 1 stop. Being able to overexpose (ETTR) and then to reduce the exposure in post is a pretty powerful tool in the war against noise. Also, given that no NR is required, or reduction in sharpening, the details that are there are fully preserved rather than being massaged away to obscurity.
 

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Very apt examples of some possible consequences of increasing exposure and/or agressive cropping, thank you Tim.

Your finer point ... "as well as suffering increased noise, you are also going to record less image detail as well, because your important tones will have fewer discrete steps in the RGB values with which to describe your pixels." .... seems to be illustrated when I sharply increase exposure of under-exposed images ... no matter how I fiddle with these in L/R the missing plumage detail could not be recreated, though the overall recovery is better than I expected. (My expectations do need refinement.)

May I add a personal comment about the dialogue in this thread ... In my schooldays (1943-1960) it was almost unimaginable that any parent or teacher I knew would find the words to explain what I was supposed to be learning in a way that encouraged me to learn FOR THE SAKE OF LEARNING. What I learned, I learned out of fear of physical punishment or coaxing or peer pressure or fear of failure. Generally (not universally) it was regarded as a fact of life that "If you spare the rod you spoil the child".
I was lucky that in 1973 I met a man who re-taught me the English language. (I was doubly lucky when for 15 years from 1994 I re-learned piano from the music teacher that my children had been learning from.)

If Tim had not learned to find the words and the language to express complicated ideas I would not be reading his thoughts and learning from his experience and studies. If I had not met a good English teacher in 1973 I would not know the difference, the difference between many things. Am I suggesting that I communicate accurately all the time? Certainly not. I communicate with the certainty that it is not easy to communicate well. In the previous post I said something I did not mean to say ... tomorrow is another day, another set of little challenges. As a youth my efforts would probably have been dismissed with inherited cliches such as "You can't make a silk purse out of sow's ear" (which many teachers regarded as a very clever comment on the human condition).

Tim's clarity of communication is a pleasure to read but it is only as good as his next effort. And he knows that.
The same limitation applies to us all.
 
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