Good first pair of binos for Bird watching (1 Viewer)

Hi
What is a good choice for a first pair of bino's for birdwatching under £100 lightweight as i cycle and walk, I want something compact. I like the look of the papilio's but I know very little about this kind of thing, and i get the impression they are more for looking at things close by ? I would like something that would allow my to see some distance away..

Thanks

Scousejoe said:

Hi
What is a good choice for a first pair of bino's for birdwatching under £100 lightweight as i cycle and walk, I want something compact. I like the look of the papilio's but I know very little about this kind of thing, and i get the impression they are more for looking at things close by ? I would like something that would allow my to see some distance away..

Thanks

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Are you able to go to a shop to try some models out? The Papilio is really neat for what it does, but there are two models, each of which is unique, but a different compromise for birding. The Papilio is a reverse porro design, which is more compact than a conventional porro but not as compact as equivalent roof prisms. However, reverse porros can be an incredible value due to optics quality , as compared to spending the same money for equivalent roof prisms, which apparently require a much greater expenditure to get equivalent performance.

The 6.5x and 8x will be fine for anything from close up to infinity focus. They Papilio (latin for Butterfly, I believe) is designed to allow very close focus for butterfly, dragonfly, and even flora uses (kinda like a microscope) , while also being fully functional as a binocular. I'm sure there's plenty of other uses. I don't know if they ship over the pond, but the US-based cameralandny.com has very good deals.

For birding use, I like an 8x binocular, 7x being acceptable. The 6.5x will have a nice, bright image for most uses with >3mm exit pupil, as well as being very easy to hold stable. The 8x will have about a 2.5 mm exit pupil and will thus be less useful in darker days or dusk/dawn. Think a bright image doesn't matter during the day? Try viewing a very heavily backlit subject. A heavily shaded area is also a challenge. This will also test the "brightness" of a binocular in mid-day.

Personally, I'd keep my eyes open for an 8x25 model (Opticron?) but for the price, the Papilio is great. Try before you buy is the best situation but understandably not always possible. If I were to pick a Papilio as an only binocular, I would go for the 6.5.

Have fun.

Matt

Thanks for the detailed response matt, really appreciate it. I have made another post in on the main board and been told that 8x42 is the standard birding binos and 8x32 also good. Do you think the papilios would compete with those ? I guess what im saying is that, I appreciate the papilios are good for flora, insects etc, but how good are they for birding ? Also what is the main difference between reverse porros and the roof prisms ?

Scousejoe said:

Thanks for the detailed response matt, really appreciate it. I have made another post in on the main board and been told that 8x42 is the standard birding binos and 8x32 also good. Do you think the papilios would compete with those ? I guess what im saying is that, I appreciate the papilios are good for flora, insects etc, but how good are they for birding ? Also what is the main difference between reverse porros and the roof prisms ?

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I would opine the 8x32 being the standard. In my experience, the 8x32 offers the least compromises for an all around bin. But it is not compact from your original requirements. 8x42 is great, especially in more extreme ranges of use, say dusk/dawn/storms/sea watch, etc. But 8x32 pretty much keeps up. 8x42 is heavy.

On your original post, biking and compact were what jumped out. If biking is the primary activity, with a high heart rate or fatigue after a long ride, lightweight and relatively low magnification are ideal.

Any reverse porro or compact roof prism is a design compromise to be sure. I will say that I use my compacts about 90% now - 8x20 or 10x25. I use 8x20 for riding - very light and not an attention getter. But I'm in sunny So Cal.

Diff between roof prisms and reverse porros - thickness. Both are light, relatively compact - roof prism more so. There are a myriad of good reverse porros on the market with extremely affordable prices. To get the same performance in a roof prism will usually take a minimum of 3x the price. Leica, Nikon HG, Swarovski and Zeiss are the top compact manufacturers with several others coming close.

If you have a very limited budget and only one chance to make a decision, I think the Papilio is a good choice but more importantly I'd still suggest trying out as many as you can, considering the primary use (biking/hiking, etc).

Thanks again Matt for your input..

I went to local shop today to have a look at the limited selection, the guy there suggested the Bresser Safari 8x32 and 8x42

I already mentioned that a lot of people have said the Papilios are good for close up stuff, not many people mentioned the birding capabilities ? although you have pointed out that they would be fine for this. Would they be a better bino than the safari or the Bushnell H20?

Im going to look at the opticron as you suggested those earlier in the post.. Trouble is locally, the shops have very little, thats why im trying to acertain whats best as it might be an online purchase..

Deciding on that one purchase can make one's head spin - I've been there. The problem with forums like this is that everyone's needs are different and anyone can only respond to your specific question, even if the question might miss the boat.

You have a choice of compacts or mid/full size and you have a stated price.

Option 1 - you have to stay within budget - the reverse porro like the Papilio will be way better "bang for the quid" than any small budget compact roof prism like the H20.

Option 2 - increase your budget a bit - the Bushnell Legend HD appears to be an excellent value. The thing is larger and heavier and may defeat the purpose of light/compact. Any binocular is going to be a compromise in some fashion. What can you compromise is the question.

If someone were to give me the choice of the H20 vs. Papilio, I would take the Papilio any day of the week. The H20 is a garden variety, mass produced, budget minded binoc (same with the Bressers). The Papilio is designed for enthusiasts, has an excellent track record with users and happens to be a great value.

Roof prism binoculars are cool looking and the latest thing. But to get a good one costs more than a comparable porro.

BTW, here are some other things to consider. So far we have talked about price and prism type. Field of view is also important. Some models have a narrow field of view. A wide field of view is better for beginners - easier to find the subject. Do you wear glasses or sunglasses ? With glasses, 18mm+ eye relief is useful there, with a bear minimum of 15mm - here only testing helps as I have found significant variability on "useful" eye relief of various models. 18+ is usually fine, though. Do you need waterproof? Will you go out when it's inclement? "Bad weather brings good birds".

Sorry if it's a can of worms, but the good news is that once you get to a certain level of quality, the degree of improvement to go to top brands is rather small.

Hi again matt, thanks for all your input. As you say all this choice can make your head spin ! I think I'm getting there though. Looks like it is going to be the 8.5x Papilio's i did compile a list most of which i have now ruled out:

Opticron Oregon LEWP 8x32
Opticron Oregon LEWP 8x42
*
Pentax papilio 8.5x
Bresser safari 8x32 *
Bushnell h2o 8x42
Opticron taiga 8x25

The only niggling thing now is are the Opticrons a better bino, than papilio but from what you and others have said, pound for pound there is not much to touch the papilio's so my mind is more or less made up. I didn't think it would be so hard to decide on such a simple thing! Not as simple as I thought !

Good points re field of view etc, wide field sounds good to me, are the papilio's wide ? Re glasses I sometimes wear sunglasses and would like to have the option to use in inclement weather although I don't plan spending much time standing around in the rain. Also have heard that most are good conditions are bright but not so good when lighting is dull, which makes sense, I guess it's difficult to get something for £100 that will be perfect in every regard, but it sounds like the papilio's are a good all rounder.

As an alternative to the Papilios you could take a look at the Opticron Taiga 8x25. They have a reputation for providing superb optical quality for the price. They are a lightweight reverse porro prism design like the Papilios and cost £70 from Sherwoods.

http://www.sherwoods-photo.com/opticron_binos/opticron_compact.htm

Ron

Could someone explain to me in laymans terms the main difference between the two different sizes of papilio's 8.5x and the 6.5x. It seems to me that if you were getting them for close up stuff and birding you would go for the 8.5 x I guess I would like to know what advantage the 6.5x have over the 8.5x ?

The two main advantages the 6.5 has over the 8.5 is a larger exit pupil and a much wider field of view. Since neither of them are particularly good at long distance views the 6.5 seems to offer an easier view for the closer ranges that they excel at; that is, it should be easier to find your subject with them. I had an 8.5 which I thought was very nice but I ended up giving it to a friend who likes to look at hummingbirds next to his porch. He is quite happy with them, but he sometimes has problems locating other birds at longer distances.
Cordially,
Bob

Another advantage that Bob did not mention, the 6.5x is likely to have about 75% more on axis DOF. At a close focus of 1 meter, this may be something like 30 vs. 50 mm respectively, influenced by ones accommodation, a significant difference.

I'm starting to think I may not be making the right choice with the papilio's as most of which that has been mentioned has been to do with near objects, when my main reason for purchasing a pair of binos is to look at birds, not flora and insects etc. Maybe a better question would be, what would you choose for birding ? Just when I thought I was getting somwhere!

Under 100 Euros, lightweight and good? There really aren't many I would choose.

Check these out if they are available over there: Leupold Yosemite, 6 x 30 or 8 x 30.

http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/leupold/leupold-yosemite-8x30-porro-prism-binocular-natural

Nikon 8 x 25 Travelite or maybe your Opticron 8 x 25.

Bob

Scousejoe said:

I'm starting to think I may not be making the right choice with the papilio's as most of which that has been mentioned has been to do with near objects, when my main reason for purchasing a pair of binos is to look at birds, not flora and insects etc. Maybe a better question would be, what would you choose for birding ? Just when I thought I was getting somwhere!

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Hiya Joe....and other folk :t: like you Joe, I too was interested in the Papilio but having read much about them decided they were not for me, I also looked at the Bresser Safari but under the name of Barr and Stroud.

I'm still wondering what to plump for, I would like something in the 8x32 8x42 lens under the ton which will do me for fishing, ie insects and bird watching.

I would go for the Pentax 9x28. Pretty small, good combo of light gathering and magnification. A very nice little performing piece, it's only real weakness being a smallish apparent field of view.

I have looked at the 9x28 many times. They are not bad, but no wow for me.

Scousejoe, if you want top quality for your money and your main priority are distant objects, such as birds, then the best you can get for under £100 (that I have seen) are the Yosemite 6 (or 8)X30s (best all round, weather proof, best image and best build quality) or the Opticron Taiga 8x25 (best compact, great build quality, not weather proof, good optically, and lightweight). You would not regret the Papillio's either (especially the 6.5s) - they are good optically, even at a distance, and just great fun to use.

Paul