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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

gulls (1 Viewer)

View attachment 306127Had good views today of our regular wintering Herring Gull that has some Smiths features.Good looks at the underside of the primaries showed a narrow black `medial band` that was thinner than the white mirror.Also in flight showing the black `W` mark on P5.
 
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Snowcap

Both yours and my birds look like Caspian Gulls with 'barred' wing coverts which I've not seen to many of. It is highly likely these birds have Herring Gull in them rather than variations withing the cachinnans group.

Interested to hear what others think on these birds and if there are similar birds being seen elsewhere?
 
hi steve, andy and others.

when seeing the bird you posted on saturday evening i immedately had the reaction that it looked like a "good" casp., knowing that i have seen pics and we've had debates over such caspians with strong patterned greater coverts (at least). however it will take some time to find examples from the net as i don't have such strongly patterned 1cy in my collection as far as i remember. maybe on tarsiger or among visa's birds. and nobody tells us if they're indeed pure cachinnans unfortunately. in the last 3-4 years i guess it's accepted that hybrids with herring gull (1st or following generations) are more abundant than previously expected - which actually seems sensible considering the situation in poland, latvia(?), white russia and russia.

head/bill and scaps however look super ok for a nice cach. a slight coarse pattern in inner GCs is definitely acceptable and seen in some pure cachs. the checkered pattern in median and lesser coverts is probably due to different pigmentation strength - bases with less pigmentation being bleached and distal parts remained brown while in juvenile plumage it looked all brown, an effect that can be seen e.g. in this bird from may: http://lou.bertalan.de/gulls/pic/hi/up_0302.jpg (those lesser coverts are still juvenile!).

i'm not sure if andy's bird isn't showing 2nd gen. coverts, if so, strong transversal bars are quite expectable in cachinnans (e.g. http://lou.bertalan.de/gulls/pic/vh/up_0640.jpg?PHPSESSID=cfb8e7697e95ed8de15de83d9434ce28
and http://lou.bertalan.de/gulls/pic/hi/up_0389.jpg).

the now discussed bird (here also: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=191277) however definitely has no 2nd gen. coverts, which might be an indice of some argentatus ancestor. still, i guess we just don't know it :-O

some ind. with a bit of coarser patterned GCs:

http://lou.bertalan.de/gulls/pic/hi/up_0032.jpg

http://www.iesmeulmeester.nl/fotos.php?actie=foto&subcatsub=223

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/polen2/cachinnans/2cy/DSC00898.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/69947151

check some birds in this thread: http://www.talk.gull-research.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=317#p1212, especially these:

http://www.talk.gull-research.org/download/file.php?id=1319

http://www.talk.gull-research.org/download/file.php?id=1618, well, they're from poland...


good night
 
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i rather think 4cy michahellis, a bit retarded: it seems to have all grey inner primaries with large white tips. any upperwing shots? i was tricked too and thought, yes, 2nd cycle cach (rectangular longish tongues, small p10 mirror), but then the mostly yellow bill attracted my attention, then i saw the all grey inner primaries and, that tongue is rather long for a 2nd cycle cach. pretty sure it's a 3rd cycle mich with more dark underwing coverts than usual.
 
Jane Turner said:
Oh dear... I've fallen for it.

any ideas on this
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=306739&d=1296761178

Its in a photo of a large throng of gulls close to where I saw what I took to be YLG land (with bins) No guarantee that this is the bird mind. I blasted off the photo, then started working through the flock and didn't find it before they flew again. 6000 of the buggers
Click to expand...

hi jane,

don't stress yourself too much, i know you have sworn on different occasions not to get too much in to this mania. :-O
6000 is a good number to work through....

black on the outer 2 primaries looks ok as does the line of black/white border but this could be deceptive in such a half bend position (one pic problem..), rest is hard to say. all white p10 tip? that whould be unusual for one of the western michs and: I DON'T SEE ANY YELLOW LEGS. ergo - this is most probably a herring gull. what did you see in the flying bird? lots of black in wing tip?

cheers
 
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ok, since sebastian's pics were published on the 2 romanian lists, i'm not hesitating any longer to show my game of last night (in the middle of the pics the most recent argentatus find, on the black sea coast, navodari, finders are ciprian fantana, attila matis, sebastian bugariu).

the 4th pic shows a michahellis lacking p5 band!

edit: i should explain my cryptic shorts: aa = adult argentatus, am = adult michahellis, ac = adult cachinnans, digits are calendar years.

one mistake, found by sebastian himself: the outermost lower right bird in second pic is a common gull (canus), any more that you find?

cheerio
 

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lou salomon said:
hi jane,

don't stress yourself too much, i know you have sworn on different occasions not to get too much in to this mania. :-O
6000 is a good number to work through....

black on the outer 2 primaries looks ok as does the line of black/white border but this could be deceptive in such a half bend position (one pic problem..), rest is hard to say. all white p10 tip? that whould be unusual for one of the western michs and: I DON'T SEE ANY YELLOW LEGS. ergo - this is most probably a herring gull. what did you see in the flying bird? lots of black in wing tip?

cheers
Click to expand...

The bird I saw on the water had a good pp projection, a square clean white head blue grey mantle and off yellow legs (same to non breeding LBBGs) - seemed fine for mich. Though as i said, no guarantee its the same bird

This is what I have outside the house

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=306694&d=1296733705
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=304945&d=1295877169
 
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Jane Turner said:
The bird I saw on the water had a good pp projection, a square clean white head blue grey mantle and off yellow legs (same to non breeding LBBGs) - seemed fine for mich. Though as i said, no guarantee its the same bird

This is what I have outside the house

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=306694&d=1296733705
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=304945&d=1295877169
Click to expand...

and a monster telescope in your kitchen window? nice pics, jane.
i'd warn to go on the often cited head shape although in some mich heads indeed appear obviously "blocky". a nice male with a thick hanging gonys and bright yellow legs would be better to find. as you may notice from the previous pics (with the herring gull find) most adult YLGs have indeed bright yellow legs by now, but maybe more so on breeding grounds? a YLG on water would stand out of argenteus basically through darker mantle. slightly darker than most nominate argentatus. and in flight by a lot of black in wing tip (esp. on underwing).
 
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