Strange Falco ID, China (1 Viewer)

xuky.summer · Sep 7, 2014

These two photos were taken in Tibet on August 23, same one.
female kestrel or Merlin (ssp. pallidus)?
I consulted Mr. Andrea Corso, he told me it is a pallidus, but did not tell me why.
In my impression, the patterns of tail more in line with the Kestrel, with fine barring and a broad black subterminal bar. Merlin appear with the diagnostic, sparsely barred Tail, showing only four or five equally broad pale and dark bars. but I have never seen a kestrel with distinct barred on underparts

Thank you very much!

xuky

birdboybowley · Sep 7, 2014

Kestrel for me

Motmot · Sep 7, 2014

And me. Bold barring on wings is not a Merlin typical feature.

P.Sunesen · Sep 7, 2014

One more for Kestel.

The tail projection is too long for Merlin, but the barring on flanks does looks odd, but equally so for Merlin, particularly for pallidus which is less marked on underparts than other races.

Peter

tconzemi · Sep 7, 2014

My last statement made at the Saker thread is still true:I do not id far eastern buzzards and falcons!
Still a few comments:
Mixed brown and grey feathers on head should make this a sec cal y male
Single visible tail feather barring could match young male Merlin
Tail is terribly long but than again e.g. far Eastern peregrines have very long wings and tail as they are long distant migrants (our Merlins are short to medium dist. migr.)
Barring of lateral parts of the chest is ok for young Merlins but most unusual for Kestrel
Upperparts are ok for both Kestrel and young Merlin
Any other pictures would be welcome

Iraq Babbler · Sep 7, 2014

what is wrong with young male pallidus? molting head and breast simulating kestrle, but shape of anchor of the barring is wrong for kestrle, face with no well mark eye drops is excluding male kestrls , also the face and dropp small bill and head in corelation with body, long tail is ok for migrant juvniles as Tom mentioned.in addition, it has narrow and pale eye ring and lores which need to be bright yellow in kestrle case.

Omar

xuky.summer · Sep 7, 2014

Thank you!
There are a few angles similar photos.
Is there such a photo of Merlin show this tail pattern?

P.Sunesen · Sep 7, 2014

Iraq Babbler said:
what is wrong with young male pallidus? molting head and breast simulating kestrle, but shape of anchor of the barring is wrong for kestrle, face with no well mark eye drops is excluding male kestrls , also the face and dropp small bill and head in corelation with body, long tail is ok for migrant juvniles as Tom mentioned.in addition, it has narrow and pale eye ring and lores which need to be bright yellow in kestrle case.

Omar

Hi Omar,

The barring on flanks is (as I mentioned above) 'wrong' for both species, unless the subspecies of Kestrel likely to occur in the region proves to be able to sport such barring. Pallidus shows nothing even remotely like this when it comes to barring, least of all males....

The long tail is IMO still wrong for Merlin (but spot on for Kestrel) reinforced after I went through dozens of photos of pallidus, where this feature did not differ visibly from hundreds of photos of other races.....

For me Merlin is not particularly small headed compared to Kestrel, and you must remember that this bird is clearly in heavy moult of head- feathers, which of course make the head 'smaller' than in fresh plumage.

Lastly, the second photo of the new ones clearly show the 'bright yellow' naked skin in front of the eye you correctly ascribe to Kestrel.

Peter

P.Sunesen · Sep 7, 2014

Furthermore, although admittedly difficult to gauge correctly on these shots, the toes do APPEAR too short for Merlin, which has considerably longer toes (adapted to killing birds) than the shorter toed vole-squeezing Kestrel.....

Motmot · Sep 8, 2014

I still see the upperpart barring too bold for a Merlin. I've edited the pics to show it better.

Iraq Babbler · Sep 8, 2014

Hello Peter,

After seeing the new set of photographs i convincd now it is a merlin due to followings

In pic 1 wings is too short of kestrle espacilly youngs and the tailseems not too long in comparision with this photo

http://www.startribune.com/local/117030738.html

despite it is a different spp.
2, im seeing a hint of molting white eyebrow espacilly in pic 2 which male kestrles lack it in all ages and plumages.
3, the bill is small basing on the position of the tomial tooth and head sems small espcially in pic 1

the lore is still pale and narrow for a kestrle . Hwever. this is my opinion rgarding what im seeing which not nessessery to be right.

Sorry

Omar

P.Sunesen · Sep 8, 2014

Hi Omar,

You are not right about the colour of eyebrows of Kestrels. As an ornithological taxidermist, I have had multiple individuals in the hand over the past several decades, and all have had pale eyebrows (particularly adult males!), but these pale, ochre, buffish-white feathers are tiny and often hidden underneath the brown, longer crown feathers.

Look for photographs of very slim, tight feathered individuals and you'll see what I mean. This bird shows the bleached, pale brow-feathers well because the crown is moulting, making the whole head small and scraggy looking:-(

Unfortunately your link does not lead me a photo of a 'long-tailed' Merlin, but to some newspaper, so I'd be grateful if you'll guide me to one......

tconzemi · Sep 8, 2014

https://www.flickr.com/photos/13101875@N00/418496999/

still say the tail is very long, but both tail and side pattern looks good compared to this one, location unknown

birdboybowley · Sep 8, 2014

Can't see Merlin here at all, irregardless of race

Little SuperBirder · Sep 8, 2014

FWIW, I agree completely with Eurasian Kestrel. Just doesn't look right for a Merlin.

P.Sunesen · Sep 8, 2014

tconzemi said:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/13101875@N00/418496999/

still say the tail is very long, but both tail and side pattern looks good compared to this one, location unknown

I perceive the markings of flank feathers as completely different. The Kestrel (IMO

) has pale, whitish feathers with distinct, thin, black, slightly arrow-shaped barring.
The Merlin you link to has dark brown flank feathers with a round, pale spot on either side of the shaft, and a PALE arrow shaped tip.

If you try to imagine how an individual flank feather would look if you plucked one of each bird and compared them, you just might agree that have nothing whatsoever in common with each other.

Interesting how experienced birders like you, me , Omar and Andrea Corso perceive things so radically different.....the human brain is indeed still a intriguing mystery:t:

Iraq Babbler · Sep 8, 2014

P.Sunesen said:
Unfortunately your link does not lead me a photo of a 'long-tailed' Merlin, but to some newspaper, so I'd be grateful if you'll guide me to one......

Here we go. Peter

though a remark of long tail seems to be solved?

Omar

Iraq Babbler · Sep 8, 2014

Motmot said:
I still see the upperpart barring too bold for a Merlin. I've edited the pics to show it better.

See this juv one, similar to the OP wcov. barring.

http://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/species.jsp?avibaseid=E35020F9A31DC5D4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77128742@N06/7669664874
also, has similar pause to our OP falcon despite it is a different subspecies, which I do expected roaming everywhere!

Omar

tconzemi · Sep 8, 2014

P.Sunesen said:
Interesting how experienced birders like you, me , Omar and Andrea Corso perceive things so radically different.....the human brain is indeed still a intriguing mystery:t:

Fully agree here, it's probably because it is so easy to convince yourself rather than convince other people B

But be aware that my first sentence about IDing eastern raptors is still valid
The game is not to ID things you do not know about but to ask questions and to learn just by keeping a most interesting thread going and putting new ideas ahead
We now know that long-tailed Merlins do exist, that the tail pattern is ok for young males and that the flank is odd for both (I have to agree that my picture showed a quite typival Merlin flank and not the barred pattern)

Andrea please give us more details about your thoughts!

P.Sunesen · Sep 8, 2014

Iraq Babbler said:
Here we go. Peter

though a remark of long tail seems to be solved?

Omar

Thanks Omar, this falconer's bird indeed seems very short winged!

Admittedly detrimental to what I have ever seen in wild birds. :eek!:

Can we rule out that the longest primaries are simultaneously growing, for instance as a result of being plucked out because the original feathers had been broken by the wild-caught (?) juvenile having damaged them by flying onto the mesh of the voliere?

In such a scenario the sensible thing for the falconer would be to pluck out the broken feathers, or otherwise have to wait to fly the bird succesfully for almost a full year until they have been naturally renewed by the first total moult.

There are other possible scenarios to explain such an odd looking 'freak' but let's not go there

I merely 'feel' the jizz and general proportions of the OP -bird being clearly Kestrel-like, and the plumage doesn't exactly support Merlin either....

Would be interesting what my personal 'Best in World' raptor aficionado, Dick Forsman has to say on this one, particularly if he has an explanation to the bizarre barring of the flanks.....

Can we agree to disagree on this one and leave it at that for now?

Peter

Strange Falco ID, China (1 Viewer)

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member.....apparently so ;)

Eduardo Amengual

Well-known member

Tom

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Eduardo Amengual

Attachments

Well-known member

Well-known member

Tom

Attachments

Well-known member.....apparently so ;)

Addicted to Birds

Well-known member

Well-known member

Attachments

Well-known member

Tom

Well-known member

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread