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Old Friday 15th September 2017, 12:03   #26
Chosun Juan
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Vespo, this is a better comparison along the lines that Niels was referring to: http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm
[Select Nikon D500 and Nikon D850 (DX)]

And while it is true that the noise does get blown up, it is also true that the subject image size is smaller.

One point that Niels may like to consider is that often FF cameras are "tuned" (much like you would have a high rpm racing camshaft in a racecar engine) to the higher ISO ranges (eg, Nikon D5, Canon EOS 1DX, etc) - ie. some low ISO DR is sacrificed in order to get relatively even better high ISO performance.


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Last edited by Chosun Juan : Friday 15th September 2017 at 12:18.
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Old Friday 15th September 2017, 13:18   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Vespo, this is a better comparison along the lines that Niels was referring to: http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm
[Select Nikon D500 and Nikon D850 (DX)]

And while it is true that the noise does get blown up, it is also true that the subject image size is smaller.

One point that Niels may like to consider is that often FF cameras are "tuned" (much like you would have a high rpm racing camshaft in a racecar engine) to the higher ISO ranges (eg, Nikon D5, Canon EOS 1DX, etc) - ie. some low ISO DR is sacrificed in order to get relatively even better high ISO performance.


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Or even better, with the cameras preselected.
http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PD...DX),Nikon%20Df

The () in the D850(DX) seem to break the link so added the Df last..

You might be right that they have to select between max DR at low ISO and optimal high ISO perf.
I guess it's the base ISO of the sensor that sets the limits.

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Old Friday 15th September 2017, 14:37   #28
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
Or even better, with the cameras preselected.
http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PD...DX),Nikon%20Df

The () in the D850(DX) seem to break the link so added the Df last..

You might be right that they have to select between max DR at low ISO and optimal high ISO perf.
I guess it's the base ISO of the sensor that sets the limits.
Haha, yeah :)

For some reason I could not do that on my phone - the link button on Bill's page wasn't cooperating for me ....

It's not only the base ISO that sets the limits - but the 'slope' of the graph - The Nikon D5 and Sony A9 are a good case in point - biased toward high ISO performance ....


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Old Friday 15th September 2017, 22:26   #29
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Robert is of course right a 400mm lens is still 400mm on any body. BUT the in-camera cropping on a camera like the 7D2 (because it has a smaller sensor) means that to get the same FOV and number of pixels from a full frame Camera it would mean it needs around 51mp to begin with.
Which is more or less what we are looking at with the 5DS and DSr.

Not having a go at anybody in particular, nor am normally all that pedantic, but the whole smaller sensor giving better reach is an oft trotted out illusion in my opinion. Nobody ever says for example "I am swapping my 7d for a 7d mark 2 because it gives more reach", or a 5d3 for a 5d4, but the premise is the same, higher pixel density giving a larger image size, regardless of how much field of view of thje lens is used.

For the record my (now sold) 5DSr gave notably better detail than my 7d2 did, and the pixel density I believe was more or less the same. Adding a further point that there is more to life than pixel density. (and in my opinion the high noise was just as acceptable, if not slightly better)
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Old Saturday 16th September 2017, 00:03   #30
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Pixel size of 5DSr = 4.14m, 7D = 4.3, 7D2 = 4.1 according to a quick google.

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Old Tuesday 19th September 2017, 08:38   #31
Roy C
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Which is more or less what we are looking at with the 5DS and DSr.

Not having a go at anybody in particular, nor am normally all that pedantic, but the whole smaller sensor giving better reach is an oft trotted out illusion in my opinion. Nobody ever says for example "I am swapping my 7d for a 7d mark 2 because it gives more reach", or a 5d3 for a 5d4, but the premise is the same, higher pixel density giving a larger image size, regardless of how much field of view of thje lens is used.

For the record my (now sold) 5DSr gave notably better detail than my 7d2 did, and the pixel density I believe was more or less the same. Adding a further point that there is more to life than pixel density. (and in my opinion the high noise was just as acceptable, if not slightly better)
Your obviously did not really understand what I was trying to say, Not once did I say that higher pixel density gives a larger image size, that would be ridiculous. I was not referring to 'reach' but fine detail. As stated previously I can only directly compare the 7D2 v 5D3 - when cropping a 5D3 image to the same FOV as the 7D2 then the 5D3 images do not yield as much detail as the bare 7D2 shots.
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Old Tuesday 19th September 2017, 17:04   #32
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I wasn't really taking issue with what you said Roy, just pointing as a general comment that the 7D2 having the same (more or less) pixel density as the 5DS/DSr in my opinion means now is the point at which we can stop mis-using the whole "smaller sensors give more reach" generalisation.
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Old Yesterday, 09:36   #33
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I wasn't really taking issue with what you said Roy, just pointing as a general comment that the 7D2 having the same (more or less) pixel density as the 5DS/DSr in my opinion means now is the point at which we can stop mis-using the whole "smaller sensors give more reach" generalisation.
That is certainly true for the 5DS/DSr Robert but from what I can tell very few bird photographers use these Camera, preferring the 1Dx or 5D3/4 for the full frame option.
On a side note I do not know why more Wildlife photographers do not go for the 5DS/DSr but guess it is to do with the AF system and high burst rate - are these Camera's really suited to wildlife/action shooting - as a previous user what are your experiences.
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Old Yesterday, 13:06   #34
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The Nikon D850 with it's high performance D5 AF system could solve that little conundrum - along the lines that Robert said. Either cropped, or in DX mode, it nearly has the resolution of the D500.

With the accessory battery grip and dedicated battery it will do 9fps, just 1 shy of the D500.

It is interesting that according to photonstophotos.net the higher resolving 24MP 'older sensor tech' D7200 has higher DR up to ~400 ISO than either of them in crop mode ....


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Old Yesterday, 19:29   #35
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That is certainly true for the 5DS/DSr Robert but from what I can tell very few bird photographers use these Camera, preferring the 1Dx or 5D3/4 for the full frame option.
On a side note I do not know why more Wildlife photographers do not go for the 5DS/DSr but guess it is to do with the AF system and high burst rate - are these Camera's really suited to wildlife/action shooting - as a previous user what are your experiences.
Well there is one local (to me) photographer who prefers his 5D SR to his 1D4 for bird photography - so they obviously have potential!
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Old Yesterday, 19:41   #36
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That is certainly true for the 5DS/DSr Robert but from what I can tell very few bird photographers use these Camera, preferring the 1Dx or 5D3/4 for the full frame option.
On a side note I do not know why more Wildlife photographers do not go for the 5DS/DSr but guess it is to do with the AF system and high burst rate - are these Camera's really suited to wildlife/action shooting - as a previous user what are your experiences.
Roy I think the 5DS/r is eminently suitable for some styles of wildlife & bird photography, and it is beyond doubt in my mind that in the right conditions with the right optics, the 5DS/r can blow away anything else in the current Canon line-up in terms of detail captured. The limitations are well discussed, the relatively low fps, the slow buffer clearance, the not-1DX focusing system. Some say the high ISO performance is not great, I say I've used it in the Amazon and didn't find it any worse than the 1d4.

Sadly (and this is only from my point of view) at the moment in the Canon line up there is no perfect body for bird photography. The 1DX2 has good autofocus + FPS but relatively low pixel count and is madly expensive, the 5D4 is no better but is at least cheaper, the 5DSr is a bit cheaper, has acceptable AF and unbeatable resolution but isn't a fast action machine, the 7d2 is probably the best compromise IF you can find one which has consistently good AF. (that would be my 2nd choice after the 5DSr).

Maybe we are now within a generation or two of the perfect camera body, one with the resolution and portability of the 5DSr, the AF and processing power of the 1dx2 and the price less than that of a spare kidney. :)
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